Will the Dublin property market crash ??

H

holly23

Guest
A new poster here so apologies if this is in the wrong section.

I was interested to get your opinions on what you think will happen to the property market over the next 5 years(esp in Dublin)
Do you see prices continue to rise, a levelling off or is there any possibility of a crash ?
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

If anyone can answer you that question with any certainty they have god-like powers.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if property markets ever do "level off". Anyone here have experience of the UK market or any other property market.

Maybe I'm wrong; I was always under the impression that property markets are always moving - either up or down...
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

I lived in Dublin in the late 1980's and early 1990s and my impression was that it was fairly flat at that time. I figure you would have to factor in inflation when you are looking at the figures.
ajapale
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

There are a number of major issues:

1. If interest rates turn upwards ..they are like the 46A bus ..they come in groups. When interest rates turn, that on its own will put the brakes on the show;
2. Ireland has according to the EU Housing statistics an incredible 337 dwellings per 1000 of population and is the lowest by a wide margin. (This keeps prices up ..as there is simply not enough ..and has not been enough ..and wont be enough..) and buyers will exceed sellers as they have done every year since 1991 ..and will continue to do so until 2008.

The first issue is negative;
the second issue explains why Tom & Mick Bailey made €50m in the 'riskiest' business on the planet.. building houses in Ireland.

When house prices turn - and if the price stays flat ,,inflation means a real price drop - some asset bubble types are convinced that the turn would be for a considerable period.

As an investor, i would take the advice of a millionaire who told me that he always sold at the wrong time! Booking profits on investment properties is what I would do, and invest in other jurisdictions where the return is normal and price inflation is also normal.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

I lived in Dublin the 1980s, one of my colleagues made a 'loss' on her house in Meath as the builders were still building the same ones further along in the estate. With stamp duty & first time buyers grant she couldn't give her place away!! That was 1985 or 86. I moved to London..... bought a place there in 1989 and in 1996 tried desperately to sell it. Couldnt' have given it away. We had massive (it seemed to us) negative equity. ANyway we held on and sold at a decent profit earlier this year, I bumped into her last week. She had had to hold on to her place and rent in Dublin for a few years. Needless to day she made a decent profit in the long run. We both had anxious and lean month where we had no tenants. Not sure I'd be happy to invest in an appartment in Dublin these days as they seem very expensive.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

It is very hard to tell when a market will crash but I think it will crash but then Ive thought that since 2002. The market is clearly becoming unstable simply because they are moving out of most peoples reach. The average house price in Dublin is around 330000 euros whereas the average industrial wage is around 29000 euros per year which means that the average house price is over 10 times the average industrial wage. In a way Ireland isn't in control of house prices anymore it is the euro that is dictating house prices. The fate of what happens house prices is tied to the fate of the euro. When the euro was initially falling in value it added fuel to the celtic tiger making our exports more competitive resulting in more jobs and demand for houses. Now that the euro is rising in value it means that interest rates will stay low for the foreseeable future sustaining the housing boom. So in a way the housing boom is like a sail boat without a rudder being blown by a powerful wind which it has no control over and no way of steering its own course. Where the boat ends up is dictated by the wind and not by the sailor.It is interesting to note that Bank of England is steering its housing boom to calmer waters because it still has control of the rudder.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

I don't think there will be a crash. There may be a slowdown in the rate of price rise. The current property boom is an effect of the celtic tiger. We all seem to have loads of money these days. There are a lot of new properties being built this year but a lot of these are being bought as second homes/holiday homes. As long as the celtic tiger continues the house market will stay healthy. Yes, the celtic tiger had a little snooze for the last few years but didn't go away.

So I think investing in property is the way to go.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

The market will crash, one week after I sign the dotted line.
I'll give you all plenty of notice of when that's happening, so you can all get on with life between now and then.

-Rd
 
Will the market crash ??

There is a noticeable slowdown of sales of houses here in the UK in the past year (and it isn't just local......I live 70 miles north-east, in Essex). Neighbours who have sold after 6 - 8 months tell me they had to reduce by 10%.

One thing that seems to me to be different between the UK and the Irish situation is that every other person you speak with in Dublin had a second property which they were renting out. This amateur landlord/lady sector is not a feature of the UK situation and might mean a difference in how the property market in the republic pans out.

The other difference is - of course - the very low interest rates in the eurozone which should mean (shouldn't it?) that if/when prices drop by about 10% in the republic over the next year prospective purchasers won't have too much difficulty getting into the market.

Another thought I entertain about the so-called "property boom" in the Western world is how illusory the gains from property ownership actually are!. If I factor-in the interest on my mortgage, the investment in refurbishing and replacing crappy lean-to bathroom etc., the profit is nothing like it looks in the newspaper columns or t.v. makeover programmes. "Paid £200,000, did it up, sold for £300,000" doesn't factor-in research, planning or labour time.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

Rates won't go up significantly until Germany, France and Italy wake up to the reality of their dreadfully overcosseted workforces and pension/social welfare systems. Which won't happen anytime soon!!

In the meantime dynamic growth economies like Ireland get a 'free ride' in terms of interest rates, which of course manifests itself in asset-price bubbles, particularly for assets for which it is easy to borrow money, esp. housing and commercial property.
 
Will the market crash ??

Well Sherman - "Cossetted" isn't the term that comes to my mind in connection with stability of work, reasonable safety-nets for the adversities of life such as illness or redundancy, and a pension of a level to enable reasonable comfort. This quality of life is (surely?) what folks are aspiring to when they invest energy, time in their education, then their training, then their working lives, no? It's all intended to achieve "quality of life" of which the size and location of the box one lives in is but a small part. I don't know anything about economics and I'm sure you're informed and correct. However that means that shortly Ireland will be full of well-educated, highly-motivated people with years of skills tranings and work experience who live in big houses and all have cars but who can't afford to live or buy petrol as the economy is based on (a) property (b) transient multinationals. Not a "crash" but quiet destitution?
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

There were some interesting articles in Business Plus recently, comparing investemtns in housing to the stock market. The bottom line was that the stock market was far better value for money based on fundamentals.
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

With Seamus Brennan mentioning in the Dail that the State takes up 40% of the space in private rented accomodation, is it any wonder housing prices continue to rise.

The demands on the government to provide accomodation are not going to suddenly dry up. If anything we're in a vicious circle, of the state renting a huge amount of the accomodation available, and it would seem, not driving a particularly hard bargain given their buying power

This pushes up the stability and returns of renting, which in turns makes rents higher, which in turn pushes up the number of people needing help from the state.

40%. I can't believe that figure. We don't have a property rental industry in this country, we have state sponsored property bonds.

-Rd
 
Re: Will the market crash ??

40%.... hmmmmm doubt that too. That means that the state are adding 32,000 people to the private rented sector this year (80*.4) - same last year and the year before and going forward - doubt that.


Roy
 
State pays your rent

I think what that means is that the State, via the Health Boards, are paying for a lot of people's rent.

i.e. the Rent Allowance scheme, which costs 200-300 million per year
 
Re: State pays your rent

Yes. They're not adding 40% to the rental market.
They take up 40% of the available rental accomodatation.

It's shocking if true. But it explains a lot.

-Rd
 
State pays your rent

It sounds as if the State - rather than the housing sector - is about to go bust?
 
2005 will be an interesting year for the Irish property market. Estate agents and lenders seem to have reached a consensus, that prices will increase by 10% this year. This forecast is in the context of unprecedented housing output expected again this year.
By the end of the year therefore someone buying an average priced home now, can expect (according to these forecasts), a paper profit of €25,000 by year’s end.

These projections are surprising however given the following facts;

1. House prices fell outside Dublin in the last quarter of 2004.

2. Rental values continue to fall and void periods increase in the investment market, this situation is unlikely to improve, the government has announced funding for 30,000 affordable housing units to be built over the next five years.

3. Wage growth is nowhere near the actual or projected growth in house prices.

4. Property markets in countries with similar economies to our own have seen poorly performing markets since the summer of last year.

UK
Mortgage approvals have fallen by 40% to their lowest level in a decade, house price falls which were first reported in the summer of 2004 are continuing. The vast majority of independent commentators have stated that we are seeing the bursting of a speculative bubble in the UK market.


US
Housing markets which saw the greatest escalation in prices over the last few years in California, Nevada and the north east are showing signs of a sharp slowdown. With falls of up to 20% recorded in San Diego and Orange County. Mortgage lending has fallen by the highest rate since the early 90’s in December.


Australia
Prices in the major cities have seen falls for over a year. Brisbane for instance has seen a fall of 15% in the last quarter. Again commentators are stating that a speculative real estate bubble has burst.


5. Levels of personal debt continue to grow at record levels.

6. Ireland’s competitive position is being eroded with business and employers organisations repeatedly warning of the economic consequences.

7. Serious issues with the role out of vital infrastructural projects have again been identified as posing a risk to Ireland’s competitiveness. After twenty years the M50 for instance is yet to be completed, broadband coverage is the worst in Europe save for Greece. Time and cost overruns, nimbyism and parish pump politicking have conspired to narrow the vital arteries of development in an infrastructuraly challenged nation, which cannot afford the extravagance of long winded development lead times.


8. Average property prices relative to average incomes are now the highest in the world, compared to other markets not driven in part by non domestic demand.

9. The above may not be an issue as Irish lending institutions seem to be able to find applicants who are able to afford these high P/E ratios. However if we consider the well documented disaster myopia which gripped banks in Japan etc before previous real estate busts and the weak hand that passes for Irish regulation of lending, this extraordinary munificence by our banks is understandable.

10. Yesterday the ECB issued a warning on house price bubbles in Ireland and Spain.


The global economy is entering a time of uncertainty. The debt driven consumer has forestalled, (to date) the economic day of reckoning which should have followed the dotcom bust, the last speculative mania. Emergency base rates in Europe and the US and hyper low cost production costs in China have staved off a recession or worse.
However there is a finite amount of debt that can be carried by society. Early signs of retrenchment by consumers are now evident in the UK and US and Ireland is almost uniquely exposed to the vagaries of any change in the fickle economic wind.


You will of course not read anything as bearish as the above in any Irish newspaper, I fully understand that whoever pays the piper names the tune. The censorship mentality that blighted Ireland for much of the last centaury is alive and well if you dare to blaspheme the new religion.

10%?, whoever said “don’t believe everything you read in the papers” was right.
 
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