What to do with mortgage - we are separating

wildrover4441

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Hi . Me and my wife are separating. We have only recently separated . A good bit away yet from dividing asset's and getting agreements written up. No one else involved. We have a joint tracker mortgage at margin of 1.25 %. Have 150000 left on mortgage and 14 yrs remaining of 30 year mortgage. House value is 245000 approx. Costing 964 and rising per month .We both have been paying half the mortgage since the start. She would like me to move out and would take over paying the mortgage but rental market is ridiculous at moment . I would probably like to sell the house but we have our 12 year old in the house with my wife and wouldn't like to uproot him. Some said to me to remortgage house maybe at a longer term so I could buy small apartment for myself rather than pay sky high rental fees. Maybe remortgage for 19000 and use the difference for a deposit. But not sure I would get enough from this to get an apartment. I earn around 70000 per year and she earns round 30000 .Between car loans and credit cards we have around 20000 of debt . I have only round Three thousand in savings. Don't think my wife has any savings. She was out of work for a few years so had to use some of the savings.
Should I
1. Sell the house if she would agree to it and maybe give her most of the profit for a place to buy since she won't get much of a Mortgage, example being might make 90000 profit for sale of house and give her 50000 or 60000 and I take the what's left over

2. Just move out and rent but that will probably take an extra 6000 out of each our pockets a year for foreseeable future since she would be paying mortgage on her own and I paying rent. And I'm not convinced she could sustain paying a mortgage for that much money.

3. Try to come up with some amicable agreement where I stay in the house .

We don't have any options really to move in with a friend and don't want to move back with my parents.

I know my options are limited . Just thinking is there any other options .I would like to do something with the mortgage since tracker rates are going up but no point if we selling

Any advice appreciated
 
Have 150000 left on mortgage and 14 yrs remaining of 30 year mortgage. House value is 245000 approx. Costing 964 and rising per month

The problem is that you do not have enough income to sustain two households.

So you will either have to live amicably under the same roof while separated or one of you will have to find cheap accommodation such as your parents' home.

Selling the house won't solve anything. The mortgage is costing you €1,000 a month. It is much cheaper to pay a mortgage than to rent. (While €1,000 is the cash cost, the real cost is just the interest as the difference is the amount of capital you are repaying every month.)

How much would it cost you to rent somewhere? Could your child stay with you in such a place? Can you share a house with others to reduce the cost?

Make sure that if you do move out it's only with a written agreement that you still jointly own the house. Typically such an agreement would be that the house would be sold when the child is 21 and the proceeds split.

Brendan
 
The problem is that you do not have enough income to sustain two households.
They have at best €80k of equity and borrowing power of €350k between them.

This is a two-bedroom apartment each outside Dublin with wife taking all the home equity as part of the deal. I suspect wife would have a tough time getting a mortgage though on €30k plus maintenance.

If it works out it would be very tight but both parties would have own roof over their heads and a bedroom for the child.

The tracker of 1.25% isn't worth much in the circumstances I think.
 
The problem with staying in the house is that, while it makes financial sense, it's not a long term solution. The child is 12, so it could mean 11 years before the financial situation is sorted. If incomes can't be increased, I would think that downsizing would be the best but difficult for your partner. Looking at what happens abroad, I don't understand that attachment to keeping the family home and leaving the financial separation unresolved for years.
 
The problem with staying in the house is that, while it makes financial sense,
It doesn't even make financial sense for the wife as she will be unable to service a €150k mortgage at rates of 4.25% next month. That's nearly €1200 a month on a €30k gross income. Simply not feasible.

Meanwhile husband would be paying rent at something like double the rate of a mortgage for the same property.

Otherwise I fully agree that "keeping the family home" is over prioritised in Irish family law in practice.
 
That's nearly €1200 a month on a €30k gross income. Simply not feasible.

Hi Coyote

I came across this all the time when dealing with mortgage arrears cases.

The mortgage was unsustainable.

But renting was even more unsustainable and that was before the increase in rents and lack of accommodation.

And that is the situation here. I agree that the mortgage is not sustainable. But renting isn't either.

Brendan
 
It doesn't even make financial sense for the wife as she will be unable to service a €150k mortgage at rates of 4.25% next month. That's nearly €1200 a month on a €30k gross income. Simply not feasible.

Meanwhile husband would be paying rent at something like double the rate of a mortgage for the same property.

Otherwise I fully agree that "keeping the family home" is over prioritised in Irish family law in practice.
When I spoke about staying, I meant the both of them staying in the house and leaving separate life. On her own, it's just not an option.
 
Hi wildrover,

I’m very sorry to hear about your separation.

If your wife stays in the family home and even if you agree for her to keep all of the housing equity build up so far, then she is still going to be stretching herself to repay a €150,000 mortgage (LTI=5 and repayments probably 40+% of her net income and rising with every ECB decision). She would need considerable support through maintenance payments and possibly social welfare payments if she's eligible. The bank may not think she can do it and so might be very difficult about taking your name off of the mortgage.

If you were to sell the family home, what kind of prices would you each face to purchase a very modest home in your area? The long and short of it is that your wife would struggle to get a mortgage. An income of €30,000 plus maintenance is not going to enthuse too many lenders. You’d each get ((245,000-150,000-20,000+3,000)/2=) €39,000 if you sell the house, repay debts, and divide all the cash equally. If she uses all of that as a deposit, then it still doesn’t seem possible for her to buy a property worth €200,000 without help from someone else. This would be a (200,000-39,000)/30,000) = 5.37 LTI on her own income, though maintenance payments above €10,000 from you could drop this to below 4 LTI.

What age are you and your wife roughly? This matters because it might limit how much you can borrow. Lenders will insist on that (1) your monthly repayments are not too high as a share of your net income and (2) that you repay a mortgage by the time you hit a certain age (e.g., 65 or 67). Say you are 45. That would mean you only have 20 to 22 years to fully repay whatever loan you get, so the monthly repayments might need to be a bit higher than if you were younger. But lenders might have a problem with such high monthly repayments and instead insist on offering you a smaller mortgage instead.

Your current joint income is €100,000. This is roughly €69,000 net or €5,750 per month. You pay €1,000 on the mortgage. Where is the rest going? You have €85,000 housing equity and only €3,000 cash, plus you have car loans and credit card debts. There might be more to the story, but it sounds like you have generally been spending too much. How are you going to manage this transition when it comes to providing for yourself and for your child? Are negotiations regarding maintenance going to be difficult given your current joint spending habits and your higher income?

Money should not be your motivation, but a new relationship and cohabitation with a new partner would ease some of the financial burden on you in a few years' time.

One way or another though, it is going to be a difficult few years financially. But you’re in a better position than most to deal with it. Take care.
 
Given @noelÓm's post, perhaps a Money Makeover post that gives more details of the overall financial situation of the two individuals might help to tease out other possible options?
 
Thanks for all your replies and advice. Im 45 and my wife 42. Regarding money makeover I'll see if I have any more details that are important to our next decision.
 
Hi,

I think it's clear enough from the comments above, that you guys can't afford to seperate, and have two mortgages, or one rental and the mortgage.

You've a 12yr old, who has to be put ahead of both of your personal lives, so I suggest you both really try and find a way to reconcile, or failing that, agree some form of house share (even if you've to sub-divide the house, internally).

If the above really isn't an option, then you guys need to sell the house (and I'd say sell it quickly, given where mortgage rates and perhaps house prices, are going) - divide to the equity in an equitable way, and you also then agree to some form of appropriate child maintenance.

Best of luck with it...
 
I think it's clear enough from the comments above, that you guys can't afford to seperate, and have two mortgages, or one rental and the mortgage.
I think two mortgages is (just about) feasible. It would mean a big reduction in living standards, moving from what is probably a three-bed semi to a two-bedroom apartment each. But there is just about enough equity and income there to achieve this. Wife would need to talk to a mortgage broker about what is feasible especially how banks would treat maintenance payments.

@wildrover4441 - have a look here at income tax treatment of maintenance payments which may be relevant to you. Also note that the new Central Bank rules will allow you to borrow up to four times gross income as a divorced/separated person (assuming bank agrees).
 
Thanks for advice. I'm doing my maths alot to see what we can afford and not afford . I definitely don't want to move out until I know exactly what we can afford . With regards to spending habits that was mentioned, yes we had been spending above our means but we curbed it two or three years ago so our debt since then has not increased. Unfortunately with my wife out of work for two to three years round same time due to a medical issue meant we couldn't eat away at our debt. Thats what I was hoping we could do now that she is back in full time employment but with us separating that's not going to be the case. Also when my wife went back to work we needed a second car due to location but I didn't have much in savings so had to take out car loan to put another car on the road. Really didn't want to but had no choice . I'll sit down again with my wife and have another chat about the future. I just wanted to gather as much facts and options as possible before talking to her again. I'll let ye know what option we choose.
 
I cannot help you, sorry, but just wanted to add that I both empathise and sympathise with you, as I am in a similar situation. Slight difference here is a lot more equity in our house, but lower joint salaries . It's very hard , I'll be keeping an eye on this thread , awful to feel "stuck " , my youngest child only aged 5. Best of luck with your situation.
 
I have a lot of sympathy for you all and wish you the best of luck.

I think selling and buying two small apartments will work out best financially for all but you will need to consider the practicalities. Do you sell the house and rent jointly while buying. What if one of you finds an apartment but the other doesn’t. Are you going to eat into the precious capital while renting and looking for a place to purchase?

If you could get two units in the same block it would work out great for your child. Their needs are paramount in all of this.
 
1. Don't, under any circumstances, put yourself in a situation where you will be paying substantially more in rent in Dublin because you are on the hook for repaying the mortgage on the home in which another independent adult will live. That's madness. You need to cop on immensely on this point and rule it out as any sort of fair solution. It's patently most unfair. And why? Because you're the man? Renting is poverty in modern Dublin. Let her rent if she's such a big fan, and you stay in the family home. The entitlement is screaming from her - and you are far from the only man to get this deep sense of entitlement to the family home from your female ex-partner. Oh, and your 12-year-old son needs a loving, supportive father to be his rock in these years. Don't for a minute think you should play second fiddle to the child's mother as a parent to that young man. Far too many fathers really sell themselves short on this precise point - and a mountain of studies highlights the link between the absence of a male role model in the home and the problems of teenage boys. You need to look after yourself, specifically to provide a proper home for yourself, in order to provide for your son. You are his role model, and if you abnegate your duty to your son by giving his mother primary parenting rights, you have done a great disservice to your son's needs. You need to clearly assert your rights to equal parenting here - at least equal. Stop assuming she will get greater rights to parent your son. Can the judge ask your son at that age where he would like to stay? You need to find that out, because his answer could be a game changer in terms of what happens the family home.

2. First, you. As a separated/divorced person you are now treated as a first-time buyer (nobody has pointed this out). You, therefore, get any advantages which a first-time buyer receives, such as paying 10% deposit rather than 20%, and getting a mortgage for four times your income, with exceptions going to 4.5 times. In other words, on €70,000 per annum, you would be eligible for €280,000 mortgage, and up to €315,000. If you could show the ability to consistently rent a room (€14,000 tax free), you might be able to show greater repayment capacity and be eligible for a higher mortgage (this is far from certain). In the current environment, you could also take on a wide range of extra work and up your income; I increased my income by some 20%, according to my Employment Detail Summary for 2022. This means that I can now get four times that extra income in a mortgage, which greatly increases the houses available to me. Warning: it could also mean the judge punishes me if my ex is not, for her own tactical reasons, similarly upping her income (as she wants me to pay her from my now significantly higher income). Still, you have to think of your future and getting your income up higher to get a mortgage should be a priority (you can explain this to the judge, with copies of your previous years' income to show your usual income is significantly less)

3. Be creative: There is now the Croí Cónaithe/derelict homes grant, which has been extended to rural areas as well as urban and is worth €30,000 if you do up a derelict building, and €50,000 if it's one of the few officially (local authority) classified derelict houses. You can use Google Maps, Google Earth, etc to identify such places, approach the landowner and see if they'd be willing to sell. Yes, you probably will have to go further outside Dublin city and yes building costs are more expensive, but you will get better value than one of the many dodgy apartments in Dublin. A mortgage of €300,000 can go a lot further than you'd think if you start thinking outside the box about everything from the location of your job, whether you like your job, etc.

4. Second, your ex: Your child is 12 so your ex should be out working and earning, for a long time now, significantly more than €30,000. She helped raise a single child, not six or seven children. Most judges will not tolerate any sort of 'béal bocht' from an independent, fully grown adult who is hoping to lean on the decidedly modest income of another adult by playing the gender card. The equality agenda has two sides so don't assume things about what she will get because she's a woman.

5. There are also a variety of affordable housing initiatives which you can both apply for and you need to contact the housing section of your local authority to find out all of these. It is well worth writing down the various schemes, completion dates, etc.

6. Your ex is paid €30,000 per annum, so at 4 times income she should get a mortgage of €120,000 (possibly €135,000 if she gets the 4.5 exception). If you have €90,000 equity when you sell your current property, and you take c. €30,000 (for your 10% deposit for your €300,000 mortgage) you will very generously give her c. €60,000. So, she will have a budget of c. €195,000 for a home. Myhome.ie has the following 2-bed homes in Dublin under €275,000, 34 of these 2-bed homes are under €200,000: https://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin/property-for-sale?maxprice=275000&minbeds=2 If you could stretch to a 3-bed, you could gain valuable extra income from the 3rd room, and provide a room for your son.
In other words, even assuming the houses above go for more than their asking prices (check the ppr register for recent sales in the area to give you a guideline of the expected real selling price), you could both find two 2-bedroom homes in Dublin where your child will have access to both parents and you, the man, do not have to rent substandard, obscenely priced accommodation until your 12-year-old is 23 years old (assuming he will attend third level)

7. At 8pm this coming Monday (and most Mondays), in Clarke's pub in Phibsboro the Talk2Us group meet. You will get advice on how to proceed with your divorce, and help with the various legal forms. You can do much of the initial work on your own, and get a solicitor if it gets more complex. Ring any of the people on this website for a chat about the process, or just turn up at the weekly meeting: https://www.talk2us.ie/
 
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1. Don't, under any circumstances, put yourself in a situation where you will be paying substantially more in rent in Dublin because you are on the hook for repaying the mortgage on the home in which another independent adult will live. That's madness. You need to cop on immensely on this point and rule it out as any sort of fair solution. It's patently most unfair. And why? Because you're the man? Renting is poverty in modern Dublin. Let her rent if she's such a big fan, and you stay in the family home. The entitlement is screaming from her - and you are far from the only man to get this deep sense of entitlement to the family home from your female ex-partner. Oh, and your 12-year-old son needs a loving, supportive father to be his rock in these years. Don't for a minute think you should play second fiddle to the child's mother as a parent to that young man. Far too many fathers really sell themselves short on this precise point - and a mountain of studies highlights the link between the absence of a male role model in the home and the problems of teenage boys. You need to look after yourself, specifically to provide a proper home for yourself, in order to provide for your son. You are his role model, and if you abnegate your duty to your son by giving his mother primary parenting rights, you have done a great disservice to your son's needs. You need to clearly assert your rights to equal parenting here - at least equal. Stop assuming she will get greater rights to parent your son. Can the judge ask your son at that age where he would like to stay? You need to find that out, because his answer could be a game changer in terms of what happens the family home.

2. First, you. As a separated/divorced person you are now treated as a first-time buyer (nobody has pointed this out). You, therefore, get any advantages which a first-time buyer receives, such as paying 10% deposit rather than 20%, and getting a mortgage for four times your income, with exceptions going to 4.5 times. In other words, on €70,000 per annum, you would be eligible for €280,000 mortgage, and up to €315,000. If you could show the ability to consistently rent a room (€14,000 tax free), you might be able to show greater repayment capacity and be eligible for a higher mortgage (this is far from certain). In the current environment, you could also take on a wide range of extra work and up your income; I increased my income by some 20%, according to my Employment Detail Summary for 2022. This means that I can now get four times that extra income in a mortgage, which greatly increases the houses available to me. Warning: it could also mean the judge punishes me if my ex is not, for her own tactical reasons, similarly upping her income (as she wants me to pay her from my now significantly higher income). Still, you have to think of your future and getting your income up higher to get a mortgage should be a priority (you can explain this to the judge, with copies of your previous years' income to show your usual income is significantly less)

3. Be creative: There is now the Croí Cónaithe/derelict homes grant, which has been extended to rural areas as well as urban and is worth €30,000 if you do up a derelict building, and €50,000 if it's one of the few officially (local authority) classified derelict houses. You can use Google Maps, Google Earth, etc to identify such places, approach the landowner and see if they'd be willing to sell. Yes, you probably will have to go further outside Dublin city and yes building costs are more expensive, but you will get better value than one of the many dodgy apartments in Dublin. A mortgage of €300,000 can go a lot further than you'd think if you start thinking outside the box about everything from the location of your job, whether you like your job, etc.

4. Second, your ex: Your child is 12 so your ex should be out working and earning, for a long time now, significantly more than €30,000. She helped raise a single child, not six or seven children. Most judges will not tolerate any sort of 'béal bocht' from an independent, fully grown adult who is hoping to lean on the decidedly modest income of another adult by playing the gender card. The equality agenda has two sides so don't assume things about what she will get because she's a woman.

5. There are also a variety of affordable housing initiatives which you can both apply for and you need to contact the housing section of your local authority to find out all of these. It is well worth writing down the various schemes, completion dates, etc.

6. Your ex is paid €30,000 per annum, so at 4 times income she should get a mortgage of €120,000 (possibly €135,000 if she gets the 4.5 exception). If you have €90,000 equity when you sell your current property, and you take c. €30,000 (for your 10% deposit for your €300,000 mortgage) you will very generously give her c. €60,000. So, she will have a budget of c. €195,000 for a home. Myhome.ie has the following 2-bed homes in Dublin under €275,000, 34 of these 2-bed homes are under €200,000: https://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin/property-for-sale?maxprice=275000&minbeds=2 If you could stretch to a 3-bed, you could gain valuable extra income from the 3rd room, and provide a room for your son.
In other words, even assuming the houses above go for more than their asking prices (check the ppr register for recent sales in the area to give you a guideline of the expected real selling price), you could both find two 2-bedroom homes in Dublin where your child will have access to both parents and you, the man, do not have to rent substandard, obscenely priced accommodation until your 12-year-old is 23 years old (assuming he will attend third level)

7. At 8pm this coming Monday (and most Mondays), in Clarke's pub in Phibsboro the Talk2Us group meet. You will get advice on how to proceed with your divorce, and help with the various legal forms. You can do much of the initial work on your own, and get a solicitor if it gets more complex. Ring any of the people on this website for a chat about the process, or just turn up at the weekly meeting: https://www.talk2us.ie/
Hi . Thanks for reply. Alot in there so will take a while to have a good read of this and take in . I am from limerick so not as bad with house prices compared to Dublin. Thanks again
 
In terms of buying two properties, you're on the pig's back if you're in Limerick and not Dublin. Don't even think of moving out to rent, or staying under the one roof in a relationship that is dead. You've only one life and you each deserve happiness. These years are not coming back.

In Limerick, property prices are a massive plus for why you should sell your home and get on with your, separate, lives. Your son will have two happier parents, rather than one whose happiness is based on confining his father to the poverty of renting.
 
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