What is the cost of setting up enduring power of attorney EPA in Ireland? Quoted €1k.

Discussion in 'Askaboutlaw' started by davep, May 11, 2011.

  1. davep

    davep Frequent Poster

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    what is the cost of setting up enduring power of attorney in Ireland. An aunt of mine has been quoted €1000 plus vat? I just want to know if this is the norm?
     
  2. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    Its on the mid to high side BUT, in saying that, in the past most, solicitors were willing to do stuff like EPA's for less than cost, the general view being that the eventual Probate would work it's way back to the office. Most solicitors now find that a lot of work is on a one off basis with less "relationship building" for the long term, especially with private clients. Funnily enough, clients expect an "above and beyond the call of duty" service from a solicitor ( call to the house, make wills in hospitals etc.,etc.) without additional fees payable or any long term commitment to the solicitor. So, solicitors now tend to charge the actual cost of doing particular work.

    EPA's are extremely time consuming and tedious to set up, with a myriad of "what could possibly go wrong" issues to deal with. There is also the long term concern of what if it is not acceptable, ultimately, by the Court when it needs to be registered.

    mf
     
  3. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Administrator

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    Are there two stages to the Power of Attorney Process?

    Stage 1 - The donor sets up the Power of Attorney while still capable - cost around €1,000 + VAT

    Stage 2 - when the person is no longer capable, the Power of Attorney is registered with the High Court - Is this another €1,000 + VAT?

    Brendan

    Update: Flac has a good guide here

    http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/epa_09.pdf

     
  4. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    Yes, two stages to the Enduring Power of Attorney process.

    Costs will be dependent on solicitor and circumstances.

    mf
     
  5. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Administrator

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    Thanks mf

    I had not realised that it was such a complex process.

    And after the Power of Attorney is registered, does the Attorney have further expenses? For example, if they decide to sell the Donor's house, do they have to seek court approval for it?
     
  6. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    Some notes from an EPA

    "Unless there is a restriction in the enduring power preventing it, you may use the donor's money or other property for your benefit or that of other people to the following extent but no further, that is to say, by doing what the donor might be expected to do to provide for your or their needs. You may not use the donor's money to make gifts unless there is specific provision to that effect in the enduring power and then only to persons related to or connected with the donor on birth or marriage anniversaries or to charities to which the donor made or might be expected to make gifts. The amounts of any such gifts are subject to any restrictions in the enduring power and, in any event, may be only for reasonable amounts in relation to the extent of the donor's assets.

    17. You are obliged to keep adequate accounts of the donor's property and affairs and to produce the accounting records to the Court if required."

    As you can imagine, Attorneys can behave badly ( using money for their own purposes) or can, wrongly, be accused of behaving badly ( another sibling thinking that they would do things entirely differently) and the High Court will entertain an application from an interested party and enquire into a situation but, by and large, the Attorney has free rein and does not need Court approval to deal with the Donor's assets.


    mf
     
  7. hopalong

    hopalong Frequent Poster

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    My mother in law (wifes step mother) is early alzheimer's and my father in law is going to get EPA arranged. If he were to die first who could manage my mother in laws affairs,as he manages all day to day life for her at the moment.
     
  8. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    The EPA should be set up with an alternative attorney. So they can act if first attorney is unable to act or dies.

    mf
     
  9. hopalong

    hopalong Frequent Poster

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    So 2 EPA,s need to be set up? ,and this can be set up with the solicitor.
     
  10. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    Its one EPA - there is provision to nominate an alternative attorney in the usual document - see notes below


    Effect of creating enduring power: information for donor

    3. An enduring power of attorney enables you to choose a person (called an "attorney") to manage your property and affairs in the event of your becoming mentally incapable of doing so. You may choose one attorney or more than one. If you choose more than one, you must decide whether they are to be able to act:
    jointly (that is, they must all act together and cannot act separately),
    or
    jointly and severally (that is, they can all act together but they can also act separately if they wish).

    9. You may also appoint an attorney or attorneys to act in the event that the original attorney is unable or unwilling to act.

    mf
     
  11. hopalong

    hopalong Frequent Poster

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    thanks for making that clear.
     
  12. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep Frequent Poster

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    Does one just "appoint an Attorney". Is there no advance discussion required?

    Can the Attorney refuse to act on the grounds that they may not feel competent to do so.
     
  13. Time

    Time Frequent Poster

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    It is normal to ask someone first.
     
  14. Louis

    Louis Frequent Poster

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    A friend of mine told me that they skipped the enduring power of attorney process altogether. His mother signed a general power of attorney to her son and daughter.

    The mother is in her 80s.
    She lives on her own and is quite independent.
    She is of sound mind.
    Her 5 children full agree with the process.
    She trusts her attorneys fully

    The downside seems to be that they could take advantage of her, although I presume she could revoke it at any time, while still of sound mind?

    They advantage is that they did not need to go through all the tedious paperwork of both stages of the Enduring Power of Attorney.

    Some door to door salesman signed her up for a hearing aid at an enormous price. Her son told them that his mother had no power to do so, so the contract was void.
     
  15. mf1

    mf1 Frequent Poster

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    "Some door to door salesman signed her up for a hearing aid at an enormous price. Her son told them that his mother had no power to do so, so the contract was void."

    Her giving a Power of Attorney to her son and daughter does not mean she cannot enter into a Contract herself. The Power allows the appointee to do things as well as her, the appointor, being able to do things herself. It is not true to say that the contract is void.

    Your friend simply spoke confidently and authoritatively (albeit incorrectly) and frightened off the hearing aid company.

    mf
     
  16. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

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    A general power of attorney is completely different to an enduring power.

    The general power of attorney is only valid if the donor is of sound mind.

    The enduring power only acts from when the donor is no longer able to deal with their own affairs/ is no longer of sound mind.
     
  17. blueknight

    blueknight New Member

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    Why go to all that expense why not have joint bank account. and direct debit set up?
     
  18. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Administrator

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    Hi blueknight

    The PoA is much broader than that. It would allow the attorney to sell property on behalf of the person. They would also make decisions about their accommodation and care.

    Brendan
     
  19. blueknight

    blueknight New Member

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    Hi Mr.burgess, PoA do you mean EPA? Do you need a solicitor or is it like England where it is not necessary to pay for a solicitor.