Water divining: Is there any evidence that it works?

Any chance Concern or Goal can hire a few of these guys to spend a few weeks in the Sub-Sahara? Might be a great help ;)
If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm amazed that no one has thought of this before!:confused:
What’s that you say; they use geology and science. I wonder why?
 
If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.

I heard a story a few years ago that oil companies hired Uri Geller to help them. I guess they must be desperate and we really have passed peak oil ;)
 
Empirical science has its limitations. Hypothesis are never proven.

For example, Newton's law of Universal Gravitation seemed pretty rock solid until Einstein came along.
 
Empirical science has its limitations. Hypothesis are never proven.

For example, Newton's law of Universal Gravitation seemed pretty rock solid until Einstein came along.
Of course - but the corollary is that where there is little or no evidence to support a particular hypothesis then we can most likely assume that it is false - viz. dowsing and the results of several scientific/"clinical" trials to date.
 
but the corollary is that where there is little or no evidence to support a particular hypothesis then we can most likely assume that it is false

No, this is incorrect. The most we can say is that there is little evidence to support the hypothesis.
 
I had a quick google and there is a US federal agency which collates information on complementary and alternative medicine

[broken link removed]

They have a few pages about magnet therapy; If I might paraphrase, their verdict seems to be : far from proven, not very convincing test results so far, but some studies show that there is possibly some therapeutic effect, further research needed (leaning more toward toward 'research needed to debunk' rather than 'research needed to prove efficacy').
 
I would say that your local Feng Shui consultant would be able to help you. They might tell you what the best way to face the house is as well.

Brendan

TBH Brendan, its well and good to believe in hard facts and numbers, coming from an accounting background, but it doesn't do to make haphazard remarks about matters that it appears you may not have researched sufficiently.

1. Feng Shui consultants may indeed be charlatans, as can accountants, solicitors etc etc. Perhaps they should have self-regulation until they too make a hames of it!! But feng Shui as a body of knowledge is very old indeed, and not be slighted in this way.
2. Any oil or exploration company worth its salt uses dowsers as a part of their exploration process. One precinct of Switzerland makes it law that the site must be dowsed (regarding illness-producing earth energies) before a building can be sited there.
3. The dowsing response is indeed caused by the user. Serious dowsers accept this and scientific study has already accepted this natural activity. No mystery there? The pendulum / forked stick etc is merely an 'aerial', not a magic wand. It amplifies the minute movementts that your mind sends to your muscles. This is the biofeedback system that you have set up in training. You can use any system you wish, including your hands, a visualised pendulum or nothing at all except a feeling. Just because many amateur dowsers get mixed results, this does not invalidate the practice?
4. James Randhi has been challenged on many occasions by dowsers and has failed to allow the challenge. As a previous poster said, please beware of Wikipedia and that includes its sources.
5. The Catholic Church used the services of Abbé Mermet, a french monk to map-dowse for water in parts of the earth where water was NOT easily found. Your 90% reference to the availability of water underground may be true in Ireland but it is patently not true in many parts of the world where the subterranean water table is very hard to reach at times.
6. The US military trained thousands of troops in Vietnam to use a single dowsing rod in one hand, rifle in the other, to locate enemy foxholes.
7. Eveyone can dowse to a greater or lesser extent. Its like the 4 minute mile folks, it can be done. Do not believe such haphazrd references to online research. Try it for yourself. If it works, keep it to yourself, because negativity is contagious in all forms of human activity.

Sorry for the tone, but dowsing is a valid activity, with many studies clearly showing results above chance, with national governments such as Russia and USA spending big money on dowsing / remote viewing. I would suggest that its not done to give us a reality anchor for our sci-fi films.

Marconi's friends had him committed to a psychiatric facility for a short time when he claimed that he could send voices through the ether.....Yet so few years later, most of your grandparents all used this technology in the aul wireless and you continue to do so !! So what seems crazy is not, if you take time to research with an open mind. Please don't ask me to reference the above claims. Google for yourself, so your own research and make proud, bold statements when you have the facts. To make statements contrary to my everyday experience on the strength of Wikipedia is not a very solid platform to stand on.

By the way, I love Askaboutmoney. Keep on keeping on.

One caveat : Abre Los Ojos folks !!!!!!
 
But feng Shui as a body of knowledge is very old indeed, and not be slighted in this way.
Eh? Something that is long established automatically deserves some sort of respect? I think not...
2. Any oil or exploration company worth its salt uses dowsers as a part of their exploration process. One precinct of Switzerland makes it law that the site must be dowsed (regarding illness-producing earth energies) before a building can be sited there.
What "precinct"? Even if they do that doesn't validate dowsing.
This is the biofeedback system that you have set up in training. You can use any system you wish, including your hands, a visualised pendulum or nothing at all except a feeling. Just because many amateur dowsers get mixed results, this does not invalidate the practice?
"Professional" dowsers have fared little better in rigorously scientific clinical trials that have been carried out. See here for example (note - not Wikipedia).
4. James Randhi has been challenged on many occasions by dowsers and has failed to allow the challenge.
Eh? This certainly suggests that he has entertained their challenges but they failed.
5. The Catholic Church used the services of Abbé Mermet, a french monk to map-dowse for water in parts of the earth where water was NOT easily found.
So what if the Catholic Church did this? They are hardly any sort of arbiter of scientific and objective reasoning.
6. The US military trained thousands of troops in Vietnam to use a single dowsing rod in one hand, rifle in the other, to locate enemy foxholes.
And....?
7. Eveyone can dowse to a greater or lesser extent. Its like the 4 minute mile folks, it can be done. Do not believe such haphazrd references to online research. Try it for yourself. If it works, keep it to yourself, because negativity is contagious in all forms of human activity.
Yes - everybody can dowse as well as the experts - i.e. in line with chance and randomness.
Sorry for the tone, but dowsing is a valid activity, with many studies clearly showing results above chance
Such as?
So what seems crazy is not, if you take time to research with an open mind.
As the saying goes - "keep an open mind - but not so open that your brains fall out".
Please don't ask me to reference the above claims.
I would prefer if you could link to the tests which you claim validate dowsing as returning results better than chance. And to supporting information about some of the other claims that you make above. It think that it's reasonable to ask for somebody making such claims to back them up.
 
There is clear evidence that dowsing works

Any chance Concern or Goal can hire a few of these guys to spend a few weeks in the Sub-Sahara? Might be a great help ;)
If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm amazed that no one has thought of this before!:confused:
What’s that you say; they use geology and science. I wonder why?

That's just over-confidence and daftness Purple. Why be so cursory over something so serious?

The Catholic Church did indeed use one of the world's greatest dowsers, Abbé Mermet, a French monk, to find water all over the world for missiosn, using map-dowsing. No its not withcraft and yes it is scientific enough for those who use it and get results. How does it work? Hmmmmmm. Let's stop using it until we find out. For God's sake, its not a cancer drug. If it works, it works. Do any of you know how many of your devices in your home really work? Do you sit there and go, ah no, that sounds like serious bull. How could you record programmes if you're not watching them and you've no tape or dvd? better tell Sky that they're pulling the wool over your eyes folks!!

If I tell you I can fly a jumbo jet, maybe I can. maybe I can't>>> same with dowsing. Just because you haven't seen quality dowsing at work doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

ALL international oil companies use professional dowsers. Try Google, not Wikipedia when you need to know stuff. Google, like a good sports car, needs a good driver. Gotta get the thinking cap on folks!

Dowsing is used across many governments, many industries. Successfully. With results above chance. Many amatuer dowsers do make many mistakes and therefore dilute credibility.


Bu then, is the scientific HSE not beginning to seriously dilute credibility at this stage :p All down to the users and their experience folks. Dowsing is subject to human error too
 
Eh? Something that is long established automatically deserves some sort of respect? I think not...
What "precinct"? Even if they do that doesn't validate dowsing.
"Professional" dowsers have fared little better in rigorously scientific clinical trials that have been carried out. See here for example (note - not Wikipedia).
Eh? This certainly suggests that he has entertained their challenges but they failed.
So what if the Catholic Church did this? They are hardly any sort of arbiter of scientific and objective reasoning.
And....?
Yes - everybody can dowse as well as the experts - i.e. in line with chance and randomness.
Such as?
As the saying goes - "keep an open mind - but not so open that your brains fall out".
I would prefer if you could link to the tests which you claim validate dowsing as returning results better than chance. And to supporting information about some of the other claims that you make above. It think that it's reasonable to ask for somebody making such claims to back them up.

;)
  • No, the dowsers did not fail Randhi's challenge. He refused to allow them to challenge.
  • The Catholic Church used it Abbe Mermet to successfully locate water in parts of mexico, California and other parts of world where all other methods had failed to find water. He found it using map-dowsing, 1st time. So what you say? That makes me smile :D
  • The US army are of course known for trying wacko ways to kill their troops by training them in using ouija boards and praying that the enemy will go away. No, they found it worked and didn't question why.
  • Again, the Swiss local authority must be bonkers also.
Maybe their minds were so open that their brains all fell out !! Ah to be in the company of the bright shining lamp of wisdom :D

I will post clear evidence but not tonight.
 
Re: There is clear evidence that dowsing works

No its not withcraft and yes it is scientific enough for those who use it and get results.
Scientific enough! Care to elaborate? :confused:
How does it work? Hmmmmmm. Let's stop using it until we find out.
No - let's test it to see if it does work. Hang on - they've done that and what do you know? Results no better than chance in any properly structured scientific/clinical test that has been performed to date (i.e. double blind etc. etc.).
For God's sake, its not a cancer drug. If it works, it works. Do any of you know how many of your devices in your home really work? Do you sit there and go, ah no, that sounds like serious bull. How could you record programmes if you're not watching them and you've no tape or dvd? better tell Sky that they're pulling the wool over your eyes folks!!
So we should just accept that it works in spite of the evidence to the contrary and lack of evidence to support such claims?
If I tell you I can fly a jumbo jet, maybe I can. maybe I can't>>> same with dowsing.
How exactly is this "the same"? :rolleyes:
Just because you haven't seen quality dowsing at work doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Show us the evidence that it works.
ALL international oil companies use professional dowsers. Try Google, not Wikipedia when you need to know stuff. Google, like a good sports car, needs a good driver. Gotta get the thinking cap on folks!
No - you post links to the information on which you are basing your claims and let others comment on them.
With results above chance.
Evidence?
Bu then, is the scientific HSE not beginning to seriously dilute credibility at this stage :p All down to the users and their experience folks. Dowsing is subject to human error too
Huh!?! :confused:
 
  • No, the dowsers did not fail Randhi's challenge. He refused to allow them to challenge.
Link?
  • The Catholic Church used it Abbe Mermet to successfully locate water in parts of mexico, California and other parts of world where all other methods had failed to find water. He found it using map-dowsing, 1st time. So what you say? That makes me smile :D
Doesn't prove a thing.
  • The US army are of course known for trying wacko ways to kill their troops by training them in using ouija boards and praying that the enemy will go away. No, they found it worked and didn't question why.
So what?
  • Again, the Swiss local authority must be bonkers also.
What Swiss "local authority" ?
Maybe their minds were so open that their brains all fell out !! Ah to be in the company of the bright shining lamp of wisdom :D
Doesn't take much wisdom to look at carefully collected evidence and draw conclusions. In fact it's boringly simple.
I will post clear evidence but not tonight.
Seems odd that you can comment so confidently but need time to gather the evidence...
 
No problem with that. My problem is with people who claim that dowsing actually works. If he strikes it lucky and gets paid fair enough.

Except that this is the argument that many water-diviners in ireland will put forward? So either they are financially suicidal or they are operating severely above chance? Perhaps they come from rich, eccentric families and wish to blow all of their wealth on digging free wells for people over a 40 year career?

It would make an interesting article I'd say. They must be stone-cold crazy to make such bets with punters......
 
Link?
Doesn't prove a thing.
So what?
What Swiss "local authority" ?
Doesn't take much wisdom to look at carefully collected evidence and draw conclusions. In fact it's boringly simple.
Seems odd that you can comment so confidently but need time to gather the evidence...

I read a lot and unfortunately I've a reasonable memory. Can remember statements made above. But as for web-links, pages etc, well ........patience grasshopper. All will be revealed
 
Except that this is the argument that many water-diviners in ireland will put forward?
How/why would they put forward my argument since to do so would be to totally undermine what they do!
So either they are financially suicidal or they are operating severely above chance?
How many diviners work on a "no foal no fee" basis and how many make their living solely from this work?
It would make an interesting article I'd say. They must be stone-cold crazy to make such bets with punters......
Eh? :confused: Once again I'm at a total loss as to what point you are trying to make.
 
Link?
Doesn't prove a thing.
So what?

I'm not sure at this stage what is meant by "So what?" We have entered into strange territory.

The US government felt sufficiently confident in the results of dowsing to train many troops in its use to help in perhaps saving their and their comrades' lives.

According to Army press office, there was no time for a double-blind test and the enemey weren't happy to oblige. But perhaps they did their own 'scientific' tests beforehand. Either ways, the results were good enough for them> and use it they did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing Oh look, its mentioned in Wikipedia and Washington Post. Of course, "So what?" I say also! Who are they trying to trying to scare with that crap? The commies?

I will retrn and post evidence. As the big man said, let all who have eyes see. But then again, there's a few agnostics reading this..... Sorry for quoting This post will be deleted if not edited immediately. he asked me :D Said he'd been on Boards but not on here too often. some believe dowsing works, some don't. Personally, I don't trust this wireless internet thing, it'll never catch on. How am I getting connectivity in this padded cell? Witchcraft? I just dunno..........
 
How/why would they put forward my argument since to do so would be to totally undermine what they do!

Not your argument???, this one>>> from a poster here: #38 I think

"How about inserting a dose of pragmatism here?

Example: water diviner tells me that if I specify position I want the well dug in, I pay for every foot, at Eur 7.50 a foot - irrespective of finding water or not, good quality or bad.

If, however, he divines it, I pay nothing unless it's both found and of usable quality.

The well was 295 feet deep.

So, based on that, which option would you elect? All I know is that I've had water for 10 years, and it's perfect.......... :) I am of course, slightly out of pocket..........;)



How many diviners work on a "no foal no fee" basis and how many make their living solely from this work?

How would I know this? Maybe I'll request that the CSO ask it next time around.... A good dowser working in conjunction with a well-borer will work on this basis.

Eh? :confused: Once again I'm at a total loss as to what point you are trying to make.

We are speaking a different language where even your "So what?" has begun to echo around the chasms of my empty skull since my brain fell out due to having an open mind; as you say.

My point is: - Dowsing works. And I accept that many tests have proven otherwise. There are also scientific tests to prove that dowsers (note, not dowsing) beat chance. I'll post those soon but not now, as I find this reactionary game kinda boring too ;)
 
Re: There is clear evidence that dowsing works

Scientific enough! Care to elaborate? :confused:

No - let's test it to see if it does work. Hang on - they've done that and what do you know? Results no better than chance in any properly structured scientific/clinical test that has been performed to date (i.e. double blind etc. etc.).

So we should just accept that it works in spite of the evidence to the contrary

Show us the evidence that it works

Just as Quantum theory caused no end of bother as it didn't seem to conform to scientific rigour, it shoudl surely be accepted that there is more to be uncovered???

from http://www.dowsingworks.com/
Albert Einstein, however, was convinced of the authenticity of dowsing. He said, "I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as they do astrology, as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the uncanny reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time."

I wouldn't mind him though. Yeh he was smart, but sure he couldn't even get Quantum theory. Why? Because he was right. Science said he was right. At the time!! :D :D

Show us the evidence you say? Surely cause & effect is what you're looking for? if not, clear circumstantial evidence that dowsing works (very very well) for some is in its successful application in life or death circumstances By US Marines in Vietnam, successful application by British Army engineeers to locate water in Monchen Gladbach, 1952. Mines in Falklands War. Its part of the Brit Engineers' training. They like to give them some light relief, some entertainment !!
 
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