Unemployment rate

[auto320]

Am I the only one who wonders why the unemployment rate has stayed more or less steady for the last few years while employers have been forced to employ tens of thousands of workers from overseas in order to fill jobs? I know that it isn't really politically correct to question this, but when the majority of people get out of bed every morning and join in the slog, why do we collectively allow the others to lie on?

Just wondering...

 

[auto320]

Yes, agreed. The safety net is there for all our benefits, anyone can fall on bad times. However why are we afraid to state that in an era of full employment, peoole should have to get off their lazy butts and contribute to society?

I know that ther are people who will never be of any use to an employer, but there are a lot of unemployed people (I know several) who think that going to work is for mugs.

I also know a couple of people with physical disability who make a huge effort to get to and from work and make a full contribution to society with their taxes etc. Why can't the able-bodied do the same?

 

[elefantfresh]

There are a lot of benefits available for the unemployed. If for example an unskilled ablebodied person "chooses" not to work he can get 180e dole, housing benefit which will cover most of his rent, fuel allowance, medical card etc. All this added together must surely come to more than the minimum wage or if not, very close to it. So simple sums would suggest that if he were to do 40hrs per week he'd be doing it for not much more than he currently "earns". I could be way off but it seems pretty simple logic to me.

 

[lmd]

Couldn't agree more - I thought the same thing myself when I heard the budget this year. In my mind there is no excuse for being unemployed in this economy. Sickness / mental health is a different story as disability benefit covers this.

My cousin is 21 and has Down's Syndrome, and is almost fully deaf and dumb. He works in Domino's Pizza making up the boxes. If he can do it there is no excuse for anyone else to be unemployed.

But there's always going to be lazy people who think they are entitled to our taxes, especially when they keep getting away with it...

 

[Guest127]

someone on the radio last week from county Tipperary. not working. husband not working. 8 kids. wanted a new council house etc. has anyone worked out how much you would want to earn (Gross) to match the equivelant unemployment assistance , dependent spouse, 8 children, medical card, back to school allowances, little or no rent ( no mortgage for sure). this person wanted their house modernised by the local council but ...........................................................................................................
..... was saving for a family holiday in ..............................................

.............Disneyland Floriday.

Personally I would struggle big time with a lifestyle like that and admit 8 kis would have driven me insane. and while I might appear to condemn their way of life , actually I don't. I don't know the reason for the unemployment (could be any number of reasons) I also appreciate that evenwith FIS a number of people are unemployable. simple as that. who would you rather have tiling you'r kitchen/bathroom -a square peg in a round hole -or Mario from Poland who tiled both my kitchen and bathroom recently?.

 

[auto320]

The thrust of my original query was really about what it is in us that makes us so tolerant of this parisitic behaviour? If I had someone working in my business who sat around all day and did no work while making no investment and taking no risk, but expected a share of the profits at year end, I would tell him where to get off. Yet we all do exactly the opposite every day as we struggle through traffic to put in a hard day at the office or factory, while the elite of the socail welfare system have a nice lie in and consider how best to spend the day.

Are we naive and tolerant, or are we stupid?

 

[dontaskme]

The thrust of my original query was really about what it is in us that makes us so tolerant of this parisitic behaviour? If I had someone working in my business who sat around all day and did no work while making no investment and taking no risk, but expected a share of the profits at year end, I would tell him where to get off. Yet we all do exactly the opposite every day as we struggle through traffic to put in a hard day at the office or factory, while the elite of the socail welfare system have a nice lie in and consider how best to spend the day.

Are we naive and tolerant, or are we stupid?

The unemployment rate has stayed more or less constant because Ireland has essentially full employment. There will never be 0% unemployment in a market economy (unlike former Eastern Bloc countries, where everybody had a job).

There will always be frictional unemployment, people unemployed for short periods between jobs, also seasonal unemployment associated with seasonal jobs.

The gripes above seem to directed at the long term unemployed and I think there has been some effort made to get people working over the past few years. However, if you go to the social welfare forum on this site and read some of the questions there you may realise that some people are better off not working because of the way the system works.

 

[auto320]

Not griping really (well maybe a little!), more wondering why this is not an issue with politicians etc, or why there is no demand from the populace at large to change things in favour of the people who make a full contribution to society and don't just sit with a whine and hands out for their "entitlements".

Is it time that the scales were rebalanced in favour of the people who do go to work, particularly at the lower rates of pay? What about the intrduction of a pilot "work for welfare" project as applied in the USA? Not to the same extremes of course, but I know that if I were unemployed and needed money I would much prefer to work in my local community than to take a handout. What is wrong with a society that sees it as politically incorrect to challenge these mores?

 

[messyleo]

there's an awful lot of frictional unemployment. people may only be unemployed for a few weeks but be included in the QNHS as unemployed. Also, the large amount of migrants means this feature is likely to increase (and indeed has - in Q3 half the rise in UE was of non-Irish nationals) as people spend a bit longer searching for jobs. It's the LT UE rate that you really need to watch; this is 1 year+

 

[sunrock]

Ireland is apparently a quite unequal country,as many people have got wind fall profits from the rise in property...a million an acre is common for development land and usually the seller inherited the land.And the same with houses which are beyond the reach of the average wage earner even as the government have stopped building council houses.
The incoming immigrants have displaced a lot of irish workers and employers have reduced wages for a lot of workers knowing that the irish could get welfare,and the immigrants would gladly accept the reduced working conditions.
Maybe people who have good qualifications or people in construction have plenty of job offers, but housewives and students in the summer have found it harder to get jobs.
No doubt people with large families get generous welfare if the parents are unemployed....however this person must be looking for work and fullfill the conditions.
What about the very rich people in this country, who manage to pay minimal taxes and others who make enormous money here and then declare themselves non resident for tax purposes.
I SUGGEST humbly that one reserves their wrath for the rich who use the tax laws to avoid paying even their fair share, instead of focussing on the
dole money of our 4% unemployed.

 

[Purple]

Ireland is apparently a quite unequal country, as many people have got wind fall profits from the rise in property...a million an acre is common for development land and usually the seller inherited the land. And the same with houses which are beyond the reach of the average wage earner even as the government have stopped building council houses.

Every average Joe and Jane who bought a house before 1996 is in the position where they are asset rich. Any average Joe or Jane who has a house can now trade up. The proportion of the population that owns their home has never been higher. The average age of the first time buyer has never been lower.

The incoming immigrants have displaced a lot of irish workers and employers have reduced wages for a lot of workers knowing that the irish could get welfare, and the immigrants would gladly accept the reduced working conditions.

I think that immigration has had the positive effect of reducing the rate of wage inflation but I don’t accept that it has caused a reduction in wages on any meaningful level.

No doubt people with large families get generous welfare if the parents are unemployed....however this person must be looking for work and fullfill the conditions.

I agree. I see no reason why we should not help those who need it in society without removing their dignity, even if this means that a proportion of those on welfare abuse the system. As for long term unemployed; as far as I am concerned this country failed a generation of it’s people in the 80’s and if the legacy of this is people in their 40’s and 50’s who are effectively unemployable then we should help them in whatever way we can.

What about the very rich people in this country, who manage to pay minimal taxes and others who make enormous money here and then declare themselves non resident for tax purposes.

No one declares themselves non-resident for tax purposes. If they don’t live here they don’t pay tax here. Michael Smurfit is often cited as an example of what you describe above yet it is ignored that he has lived in the USA for about 20 years and pays his taxes there.
Everyone is entitled to minimise his or her tax bill in any way that is legal. I do it by claiming back medical expenses and putting money into my pension. If a very rich person does it by investing in the Irish economy then what’s the problem? There are tax avoidance schemes that I think should be stopped but that’s for government to decide.

I SUGGEST humbly that one reserves their wrath for the rich who use the tax laws to avoid paying even their fair share, instead of focussing on the
dole money of our 4% unemployed.

I suggest that they are two separate issues and should be dealt with separately.

 

[Guest127]

I think we should accept it that some people are just unemployable , the fact that they might also have large families is probably no coincidence but I don't thinks its as black and white as that. I personaly know of one person who won't work. just won't. never did and never will. and hes drawing disability benefit as he gets doctors certs stating that he's disabled. and he now lives in alicante. drawing irish disability. he was entitled to free travel when he lived here and was able to get other people free travel passes for anytime he went on the train etc. cie just took his details and let the other passenger on with him. I should know. I 'availed' of his 'generosity' on one occasion. on the question of tax exiles ok so some pay taxes elsewhere. but some dont ie JP McManus is a resident of monaco. despite that large pile down in Limerick. I do honestly believe that most people look for work. some don't and some are just unemployable. take at walk at lunchtime. today is wednesday so a lot of unemployed have gotten their payments this morning. some will be int he pubs from early. Would you employ them and if not who would you expect to employ them?

 

[auto320]

What about the very rich people in this country, who manage to pay minimal taxes and others who make enormous money here and then declare themselves non resident for tax purposes.
I SUGGEST humbly that one reserves their wrath for the rich who use the tax laws to avoid paying even their fair share, instead of focussing on the
dole money of our 4% unemployed.

Its very hard to debate this issue without seeming to be taking a right-wing intolerant view. The fact remains however that the sheer numbers drawing unemployment assistance means that an awful lot of people still give the two fingers to anyone who works and pays taxes. The trade of "professional dosser" tends to often run in families, where the ethos is to take everything and give nothing back. Because of the strong state of government finances, there seems to be no effort to actually break this cycle and get these people out of bed in the mornings. If anything, funds for FAS type schemes of social employment are scarcer than ever before.

I don't condone for one minute the people who earn vast sums and dodge taxes; that is a different issue and one that is well and frequently debated. Try to debate this issue in a balanced way however if you are a politician, and the wrath of the PC brigade will make you wish you had kept your head in the sand.

If I were unable to make a living I would either emigrate (I did just that in the 1960s) or take anything that was available. I think that it is antisocial and arrogant of anyone who expects to be paid for doing nothing on a long term basis if they are able to work. This attitude is passed down to children and the wider community, essentially looking at anyone who goes out to work as a mug. Now, when we have the resources, we should break this cycle for good. After all, tax changes were brought about to encourage the participation of more women in the workforce, not for any reason of equality, but to fill a need for more employees. How then can we ignore an idle resource that actually creates a liability?

 

[Purple]

on the question of tax exiles ok so some pay taxes elsewhere. but some dont ie JP McManus is a resident of monaco. despite that large pile down in Limerick.

So he doesn't live here so why should he pay tax here? The fact that he provides jobs here should be applauded. The income tax (or lack of same) that is charged in his country of residence is not our business. There are a couple of hundred thousand UK and US citizens living here. Do you think that they should not pay tax here?
One of the main drivers in our economy is transfer pricing and effectively stealing tax revenue from other countries. I don’t think we should get up on our high horse about international tax arrangements.

 

[pat127]

“Ireland is apparently a quite unequal country”

Name me one that isn’t?


“I SUGGEST humbly that one reserves their wrath for the rich who use the tax laws to avoid paying even their fair share, instead of focusing on the dole money of our 4% unemployed.”

There will always be people who are fit to work but choose not to. This is an incontrovertible fact of human nature and there is no point going on about it. The relevant questions are (a) what percentage of the total unemployed do these people represent? (b) is this a ‘normal’ or ‘acceptable’ level (presuming that you can even quantify that)? (c) are the financial resources required to rectify the situation worth the return? I don’t think there is much point continuing the debate without these stats.

Going a bit off topic I know, but did you mean tax ‘evasion’ because that’s illegal whereas ‘avoidance’ is perfectly legitimate and available to all of us? What have the rich done to deserve our wrath? When it comes to paying tax, what’s a ‘fair share’? I’ve no problem with people getting rich. They generally do it by dint of working their butts off and taking appalling financial risks. Their actions allow lots of Joe and Jane Citizens to enjoy 40-hour weeks, pension schemes and all the usual perks but with none of the headaches. The rich do pay taxes and while it is fair to say that some of the avenues open to them to reduce their tax bills need to be reviewed I’d argue that unless all the cash is kept under the bed, it finds its way back into circulation anyway, in one way or another. Wealth is of no value whatsoever unless it’s spent.

PS I’d better say that I’m not rich! Neither a racehorse nor even a yacht to show for all my years as a faithful wage-slave.

 

[sunrock]

Its said we have full employment in this country.
That may be true of major urban areas,but there are many rural areas where jobs are quite scarce.
And there is a lot of competition from immigrants for unskilled jobs.....many employers prefer them over irish workers....hence displacement.
If i HAD A RESTAURANT I`D prefer to hire a young continental girl as a waitress than a middle aged irish one.
The fact that a man may be almost just as well off on welfare than on low wages ....well can you blame him for choosing welfare... especially if he maybe works part time or works a few months on and off.And to be quite honest i don`t see the harm in it.
A LOT OF WORK now is by agencies or contract,where one has no security and maybe gets only part time work....it is of course a lot different for people on fixed salaries.
Of course there are people who are workshy or have drink/drugs/mental problems ....who are basically unemployable and they get their dole ....i don`t see what else can be done to this group.
Should we be outraged at unemployed people at home all day watching t.v......maybe! but there are alot of other people doing that as well.
workfare was mentioned , but isn`t there many such schemes in operation,with fas course,people doing community work etc.
Our unemployment rate is now 4%.......the time for the call to get people doing something for their dole money was surely when we had 10% + unemployment rate......no point now in targeting the bottom 4%

 

[Amygdala]

If there was an accurate breakdown of unemployment figures then the issue could be debated more clearly.
For example: young able physically/mentally, single and no dependents-Very hard to justify receiving welfare without attending some form of training course. However change any of the parameters and the situation becomes more complex.

 

[Purple]

The fact that a man may be almost just as well off on welfare than on low wages ....well can you blame him for choosing welfare... especially if he maybe works part time or works a few months on and off.And to be quite honest i don`t see the harm in it.

So even though he is able to work he chooses to go on the dole you see no problem with it and yet you reserve your ire for those that legally avoid tax?

 

[ClubMan]

IThe fact that a man may be almost just as well off on welfare than on low wages ....well can you blame him for choosing welfare...

Plenty of people - especially since one of the fundamental qualification criteria for receipt of UA/UB is that the individual is genuinely available for and seeking work and not that they just choose to work and go on the scratcher instead.

 

[sunrock]

I stand corrected....choose is the wrong word...as the unemployed must be actively seeking work and available for work as pointed out.
I suppose it`s the incentive factor.
But if a person genuinely can`t find work and stays home in bed on the dole....not against the law by the way....well we shouldn`t be critical.
The problem about our super rich avoiding/evading ? tax by using tax shelters or declaring they are non resident, is it`s so blatantly unfair and sends the wrong message down the line.
Look at denis o brien he made his money in ireland ,then declares non resident status to reduce his tax bill.
Of course he worked hard getting a cancer mast in each garda stn, knocked a good few heads together to get all the papers signed......but this mobile phone buisness would have happened anyway and while not belittling his achievement ,a lot depends on government licences etc.
I await litigation letters and have 2 weeks dole money in reserve