Fair Deal/Nursing Homes Uncle's Fair Deal assessment

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right stuff

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Hi,
My uncle and his wife are elderly. They have a home €40k and farm €300k. They have no children. They want to transfer their land to either a relative or charity/church in the near future. If the asset is no longer in their name (the land €300k) and they apply for the fair deal within 5 years, what is the point of the fair deal scheme taking this asset or cash into account as they have no access to the asset or funds. I dont see how the person/institution recieving the asset/cash can be held responsible either?
 
Why should the state pay for their care whe they have access to a large amount of funds?

Moving it by gifting it to someone else to avoid this responsibility is THE POINT of why fair deal looks back 5years so as to prevent these type of shenanigans
 
right stuff said:
Hi,
My uncle and his wife are elderly. They have a home €40k and farm €300k. They have no children. They want to transfer their land to either a relative or charity/church in the near future. If the asset is no longer in their name (the land €300k) and they apply for the fair deal within 5 years, what is the point of the fair deal scheme taking this asset or cash into account as they have no access to the asset or funds. I dont see how the person/institution recieving the asset/cash can be held responsible either?
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As far as I know there's special arrangements for farmers and landowners with the fair deal. Below is a copy of something I saw, it may be of some help;

Question)
When does the ‘3 year limit’ apply for farm or other small business assets?

Answer)
In certain circumstances the ‘3-year limit’ (or cap of 22.5% of chargeable asset value), is applied to the farm or other small business assets. It applies in the following circumstances: • Where the person has suffered a sudden illness or disability, which causes them to require long-term residential care; • Where the person or their partner was actively engaged in the daily management of the farm up until the time of the sudden illness or disability; and • Where a family successor certifies that he or she will continue the management of the farm or relevant business. I transferred my farm six years ago – will this be counted as part of my means? No. All assets transferred for 5 years or more are excluded from the assessment of means. I transferred my farm three years ago – will this be counted as part of my means? Yes. If you make an application for the Fair Deal Scheme, because your farm has been transferred during the previous 5 years from the date of application, it will be included as part of your means in the overall financial assessment. It will continue to be assessed as part of your means for as long as you remain in care. However, you/your family have the option of paying your own nursing home/other care costs for two years and applying for the scheme when the 5 years limit for transfer of assets has expired. The farm you have transferred will no longer be considered as part of your means.
 
Thanks for the feed back "noproblem". My uncle is determind to pass on something, this is his wish. There really is nobody to pass onto, due to his location. So the church will get all. My questiosn is, what will that mean to my uncle and his wife when the HSE acces him or means test him, will it mean he has to go into a home with less frills or could it be that he is refused care. where can we get advise, because im not in a position of knowledge here
 
right stuff said:
Thanks for the feed back "noproblem". My uncle is determind to pass on something, this is his wish. There really is nobody to pass onto, due to his location. So the church will get all. My questiosn is, what will that mean to my uncle and his wife when the HSE acces him or means test him, will it mean he has to go into a home with less frills or could it be that he is refused care. where can we get advise, because im not in a position of knowledge here
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So cutting to the chase, what he's saying is that although he has enough money to pay for his nursing home care from his own resources he wants someone else to pay for it so he can act as Lord Bountiful to the church or some undeserving relatives! The man is a true patriot! :(
 
Heres what wil happen ( based on made up numbers)

He is assessed for the fair deal scheme and based on his assets, the HSE says that he can afford to pay €800 a week and they will pay €400,.
He has given away his assets so he can't afford €800 a week. No private nursing home will take him as he doesnt have the fees.

I have no idea what chances he has of getting a place in a public nursing homebut I wouldnt be banking on it,
 
I'm also interested to know what would happen in this situation. Let's say the person has given away ALL of their assets <5 years beforehand, is not safe to stay at home and needs to be in residential care - what then? I suspect that the HSE/taxpayer will end up paying for their care, in a public or private NH or in a hospital. Making a mockery of the 5 year rule.
 
Yes indeed, but then again nothing's perfect. I know of a person who inherited a farm from a relative, not his fathers place. From once he got it he started to sell it off and drank the proceeds like a fish called Wanda. A decent ould skin but not a clue about life or anything else. Of over 100 acres, there was maybe 3 left plus an outhouse that he "camped in" towards the end of that period of his life. Don't know how, but he ended up going to a nursing home where he recovered magnificently and lived for 6 years + mostly drink free. Yes, the tax payer ended up paying for it. One might even call it a flaw in the democratic process but there you go.
 
Where is there prefossional advise on these matters.i see on line there are fair deal consultants, but im not sure if they can answwer difficult questions. I would be more comfortabe getting good advise directly to my uncle, he is old and needs independant advise
 
I've gone thought the fair deal scheme recently with my mother. In fairness, their staff are pretty helpful and the means test was not onerous, at least in our case.

Firstly, I would recommend that your uncle had a will sorted, appropriate next of kin identified and decisions made on things like resus orders for if/when he goes in. Also an appropriate POA in case he ends up in a position where he is unable to make decisions. That POA can then allow someone to make appropriate decisions on bank accounts, payments etc. A competent solicitor will be able to advise on that. In our case, Mam is incapacitated but myself and my sister can jointly sign forms in a bank branch on her behalf without her being present, which given she banked with Ulster has made that task so much easier.

Once the assessment is done, you'll be in a clearer position. If your Uncle requires a loan under Fair Deal to pay for his care the person making the application provides details of the person who will be responsible for repaying the loan. This person is called the relevant accountable person or personal representative.

When the loan is due to be repaid, the HSE gives the contact details of the relevant accountable person or personal representative to Revenue. Revenue will then contact that person to request repayment. If he is intent on leaving his assets to the Church then potentially it may be worth reaching out to the Diocese to see what their view is and would they be that person. Each Diocese will normally have someone who manages property, leases and bequests and would be in a better position to advise then the local Parish Priest.

In our case, Mam went into a private nursing home initially but thankfully a bed came up in the Public one and we were able to move her there. Most Nursing homes have someone who is expert in Fair Deal as well so they may be able to advise
 
The OP seems to be forgetting there's an aunt here as well, it's all uncle this uncle that has the wife no say in anything?
 
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