Trackers looking good

E

elephant

Guest
Given the markets what could be better - buying into equituies at low prices with a capital guarantee.
With profits are history - clients dont want unit funds
The experts will have to eat humble pie!#Trackers are the only, game in town!!!
 
Trackers

I understand that trackers are normally only available for short amounts of time. Does anyone have a list of the better trackers that are available at this point in time? Or alternatively point me in the right direction.
 
Tracker bonds

I hate to inject a note of sanity into the discussion, but . . .

If we know that prices are low (i.e. they will go up rather than down) then we don't really need a capital guarantee and the price we should be prepared to pay for one (either in terms of getting only a fraction of the index rise or in terms of a cap on growth, or both) should be limited.

Hence we cannot say that a particular tracker bond is attractive until we know what capital guarantee it offers and what the price of that guarantee is.
 
Trackers

Unlike the Elephant, while I think that markets may have bottomed out I haven't got the nerve to stake all my hard earned money on it. Don't like with profits as they aren't transparent enough for my liking. At least with a tracker you know what you are getting. I have money I want to put away for at least 5 years and am in the market for same unless someone can convince me that there is a better guaranteed product. Where is the samrt money going?
 
Trackers

If you're looking for guarantees then the best tracker in the market is Ulster Bank which is offering 20% minimum return over 6 years - that's over 3%pa. The maximum return is 60%.
Bank of Ireland and First Active both have Combination bonds where you're money is split into different terms so its hard to work out the value of these.
An Post has a guaranteed product with no upside potential but a minimum return of just over 4% pa
 
Only game in Town?

Yeah, spot on elephant.

I mean what more could a punter ask for!

1. equity exposure offering 60% or 70% participation in the growth of an index
2. participation in the obvious attractions of the Japanese stockmarket (which most trackers do) where the price of options is cheapest
3. a five year + time frame with 12 month averaging at the end, to PROTECT! investors, (not because it reduces the option price)
and the real hook
4. equity exposure without participation in the dividend

In case my sarcasm has not come across clear enough, I think trackers are very poor investment. There are several reasons why not to invest in one. However, the fact that you do not receive the dividend has to be their greatest failing.

Given the state of markets at the moment, it is very tempting to opt for the capital guarantee. However investors' often fail to recognise (probably because it is not being highlighted for them) that there is an implicit cost for this guarantee - you don't get the dividend. And right now this cost is very significant. Dividend yields are at multi-year highs given the sell-off on stockmarkets. And if you believe, as I do, that the dividend will represent a significant proportion of the return to an equity investor in future, then you should steer well clear of trackers.

Yep, trackers have it all. Unlike unit funds where the charges are explicit and have to be explained to clients!
 
Re: Trackers

Hi Ex With Profit Man

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> At least with a tracker you know what you are getting.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Great - I'm delighted to hear that you've worked out how all the trackers are being charged, i.e. exactly how the institutions are making money from them and how much money their making on each bond.

Given that you 'know what you are getting', would you like to share your knowledge with the rest of us?
 
Trackers.....

Hi Rainyday,

Thanks for being so condescending.

..... maybe I'm naive but no doubt I'll be put straight.

My understanding on trackers.

They take an index or number of indicies on a certain day. Say for example they take the FTSE 100 today at say 4000 and at the end of the term the FTSE is 6000.

The payout is your investment + ( 50% x Participation ) subject possibly to an overall max.

Am I wrong.

Undouubtedly I have no idea what the provider makes but I think I know what I am getting. No?
 
Re: Trackers.....

Hi EWPM - Sorry - no offence intended in my sarcasm.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but unless/until I can see & understand how & where the provider is making his money, I tend to be a bit wary of such products.
 
Re: Trackers.....

Hi RainyDay,

This is an interesting point on which I'd like to hear your views.

Unit-linked fund. Clear and transparent charges. You know roughly how much all parties are making in charges (seller, fund manager etc.)

Tracker Bond. You don't know how much the provider is making, you only know how much the seller is getting (disclosure requirements.) But you do know exactly what your return will be from day one. If markets rise by X%, you will receive Y%. If markets drop, you will receive some other figure. While the terms of tracker bonds differ, most of them allow you to know exactly what your return will be.

Is this such a bad thing? I have no idea what the profit margin is on the building of my house. But I'm paying a price and I'm getting a house. I don't know what the manufacturer (or seller) made on my car. But I paid a price and I got a car.

Why should tracker bonds be different?

Regards...Liam
 
Re: Trackers.....

Hi Liam - I need to understand the business model.

With a car or a house, I've a pretty good idea as to how they make their money, e.g. the motor dealer buys at €x from the distributor and sells at €y to the punter, and pockets €y - €x. Even if I don't know the exact value of €x, I understand how they make their margin.

But with trackers, I just have no idea HOW they make their money.
 
Re: Trackers.....

If I buy a car for €15,000, I don't really care if the manufacturer is making €14,500 profit and the dealer €400 if I feel that €15,000 represents good value for the car I'm buying.

With a tracker, you get a contract in writing from the issuer (often a major financial services player such as New Ireland, Irish Life etc.) which tells you that you will get 70% of the averaged return on the tracked index etc.

Why does it matter to you if Irish Life are in fact taking all your money and putting it on the 3.15 at Sandown as long as they fulfil their side of the contract?
 
Trackers

Or on a deposit account. Do I know what rate the bank is charging another customer to borrow the money I have lent them (ie their margin) ? Do I care ?

No - I evaluate the various rates on offer and select the best for the conditions attaching.
 
Trackers

Yes. A focus on costs and expenses is very fine and healthy, but costs and expenses really matter where they affect your return. If you are guaranteed a return net of costs and expenses, do you really care what the costs and expenses are?

It's prudent to ask yourself how much you need, want or value the guarantee, and in that context the cost of the guarantee is a relevant consideration. But in this context the "cost" to you of the guarantee is the difference between the return you will get on this product and the return you would get on a similar but not-guaranteed product. You can find that out simply by shopping around.
 
Re: Trackers

Hi Liam & Dogbert - With most financial contracts, it's effectively impossible to understand & interpret the small print of the actual contract. To be honest, I'd have this nagging doubt that the provider will find a way to wiggle out of the 'headline' commitments. Unless/until I know how they are making money (Note 'How' - not 'How much'), I'll be avoiding these products.

Dogbert - For deposits, I understand that the bank is going to be lending out my money to borrowers at a higher rate, so that's where they are going to make their margin.

Can either of you educate me & tell me how the providers make their margin on trackers?

Regards - Shane
 
Trackers

Hi all,
Looks like this one is creating a bit of a stir, as always.
Personally, I am on the side of the "I don't care what the manufacturer gets". With-profits are as clear as mud and some actuary will decide at the end of the day how much he feels like paying me!
I believe that direct equities, unit funds and trackers all have a place for different investors or even for different requirements for the same investor.
As usual, there are comments like "60% of the market return", "no dividends" etc.
I know of a product that will pay 100% participation in the EuroStoxx50 over 5 years (12 month averaging). Note, the downside for this level of participation is the product provider can recall the bond on the 3rd anniversary date for an attractive compensation payment (30%). So the investor gets either 30% over 3 years, 9.14%pa or 100% of EuroStoxx50. Unfortunately the bit that most of you don't want to hear is that it can do this as the institution is doing it at a very low margin and therefore there is no scope to pay introducers.
Also, it is true that averaging reduces the price of the option but ask the many thousands of people who have come out of trackers over the last 2 years if they have a problem with it!
 
Trackers

Hi Rainyday,

The basic tracker model is as follows.

The institution takes your money, and puts as much as it needs into a term-matched interest paying security with interest payments rolled up till the end of the term (a zero-coupon bond), which forms the basis of the money back guarantee. They deduct their expenses (including the remuneration of distributors, if any) plus their desired profit margin. They invest whatever is left over in an option contract on an equity-based security, typically an index or a basket of indices. That option gives the client his "participation" in the equity market.

So the client gets (1) a guarantee of his money back
at the end of the term, underwritten by either the
provider or a third party, plus (2) a percentage of
the growth in the equity market over the term. What it
says on the tin.

The provider's charges and the distributor's commission are disclosed in full if the tracker is written under a life assurance licence (Irish Life, New Ireland, etc), but not if it's written under a deposit-taking licence (Liberty, RBOS etc). The market for trackers is very competitive, and a product which has higher than normal charges (and hence offers less to the customer) will stand out ... just like a poor value deposit account. So why should I care what margin has been made on it (although unlike Liam's car example, I do know the actual figure, through the disclosure statement), provided it gives me what I want ?

The current low interest rate environment has made it
more difficult for the marketers of trackers, because
more of the customer's money is needed for the "money
back" element, with correspondingly less to spend on
the equity option. This is not inherently bad value
for the customer; it simply means the price of
guarantees has gone up. What it also means though is
that marketers are scrambling to offer attractive
headline rates or gimmicks ("double growth", "up to
150% exposure", etc), which I accept makes it more
difficult to compare one product with another. In
essence though, they're all working with the same assets, and are simply packaging risks in different ways. Once you move much beyond the plain vanilla, there is a need for consumers to be aware of the way the risks are being packaged. I and others here on AAM have been critical of Liberty's Escalator Bond on this basis.

Incidentally, I also agree with US's verdict that
guarantees are probably less appropriate with markets
at their current levels than they were at the market
peak, especially as the guarantees themselves have
become more expensive. (Although it should be noted that low interest rates also make the natural competitor of trackers, the deposit account, less attractive.) But it is clear that consumers have been burned by the market falls, and they now want investment products with guarantees attached.
 
Trackers

Hi flash,
As a relatively new user of AAM, I'm not sure if it's ok to plug product. Whilst I do not directly work for the product provider, I have to declare an involvement.
If the moderators allow I will advise of the supplier.
Note however that it is not being launched through intermediaries per se. However, that is not neccessarily cast in stone but due to the nature of the product it would only pay a low introductory fee. It will be of interest to direct investors, AAs or fee based brokers.
Minimum investment is €25k.
 
Re: Trackers

Hi.

While it is good to challenge knee jerk reactions
about product transparency, I think people have gone
slightly overboard here in defending trackers and
their ilk.

Just because trackers offer a simple to understand
and guaranteed return doesn't mean that we shouldn't
be interested in whether they offer good value to
the investor. Unlike cars and houses (a spurious
analogy, I think), the underlying value of the
securities which back these products are clearly
quantifiable. How much are the zeros and options (as
explained by Dogbert) which back your five grand or
whatever actually worth?

Mortgages are simple to understand also but that
doesn't mean the Irish public were not being ripped
off for years before RBOS shook things up a few
years ago. Similarly the punter got a rotten deal
from deposit accounts despite the transparency of
the returned offered; things seem to have improved
a bit since Northern Rock entered the market.

daRag.
 
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