R
rmelly
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better you than this guy - wonder if he is public or private sector...
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=99857
Time off for Christmas shopping in public service.
- Thread starter baldyman27
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better you than this guy - wonder if he is public or private sector...
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=99857
Complainer
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Not so much a court order - More like form B78F-B (new biro request form), must be authorised by Head of Dept and filled out in triplicate (in biro).your current public sector employer won't give you a biro unless there is a court order?
Some assumptions (feel free to play with the numbers and check my sums)
We have 275,000 civil & public servants
They are each paid 20% more (on average) than the average industrial wage, say €700 p/w or €20 per hour
They each work 45 weeks of the year
Half of them take their Christmas half-day, one hours banking time per week, and two privelege days per annum.
Christmas Shopping Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 3.5 Hours = €9,625,000
Banking Time Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 1 Hours X 45 weeks = €123,750,000
Privelege Day Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 7 X 2 = €38,500,000
I think that comes to a total of €171,875,000 for little hidden perks - its the sheer scale of the thing that makes it hard to swallow.
We have 275,000 civil & public servants
They are each paid 20% more (on average) than the average industrial wage, say €700 p/w or €20 per hour
They each work 45 weeks of the year
Half of them take their Christmas half-day, one hours banking time per week, and two privelege days per annum.
Christmas Shopping Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 3.5 Hours = €9,625,000
Banking Time Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 1 Hours X 45 weeks = €123,750,000
Privelege Day Cost = 137,500 X €20 X 7 X 2 = €38,500,000
I think that comes to a total of €171,875,000 for little hidden perks - its the sheer scale of the thing that makes it hard to swallow.
The bank time is way off - its generally 30 minutes on the week you're paid, and since most are paid fortnightly, it's about a quarter of what you calculate. Also, civil servants recruited since 1st October 2003 must be paid into their bank account, and don't get bank time, so it's a perk that will die out in in time. Given the expansion of the public service in recent years, that means that possibly up to a quarter of the public service of are already ineligible at this stage, so again your figures would need to be amended to reflect that.
As for privilege days, I believe they only apply to the civil service (I could be wrong). The offices remain closed for an extra day at Christmas, so every civil servant has to take it - there's no real opting in or out to it. However, that doesn't seem too bad when you look at, say solicitors offices, many of whom have already closed, and will remain closed until January. Many businesses give holidays over and above the public holidays at Christmas time, and also give bonuses (which we don't get), so I don't really see why the public service should be singled out.
As for the "shopping time", again I don't know how prevalent that actually is. I seriously doubt teachers get it anyway. It could be just a civil service thing again, so your base figure of 275,000 could be way off.
As for privilege days, I believe they only apply to the civil service (I could be wrong). The offices remain closed for an extra day at Christmas, so every civil servant has to take it - there's no real opting in or out to it. However, that doesn't seem too bad when you look at, say solicitors offices, many of whom have already closed, and will remain closed until January. Many businesses give holidays over and above the public holidays at Christmas time, and also give bonuses (which we don't get), so I don't really see why the public service should be singled out.
As for the "shopping time", again I don't know how prevalent that actually is. I seriously doubt teachers get it anyway. It could be just a civil service thing again, so your base figure of 275,000 could be way off.
Why so defensive j26?
My invitation was to
Come up with a number. If you can pick holes in my assumptions and calculations you must have some idea of a number.
Bonuses may be granted in the private sector (they will be taxed as well unlike the hidden perks under discussion here), but they will be tied to the performance of the individual and the organisation as a whole. If there's no money in the kitty, bonuses won't be paid.
Having worked as an employee and an employer in the private sector, I have been on both sides of the equation -
My invitation was to
Have a shot at it, although I think you will find by perusing older threads on AAM that my numbers stack up.
Come up with a number. If you can pick holes in my assumptions and calculations you must have some idea of a number.
I worked in the public sector as contracted employee for a period and I was granted privilege days based on "custom and practice" in the role I was fulfilling, so your brlief is misplaced.
If you read the previous posts in the thread you will see that in the private sector any holidays employees take over and above public holidays come out of their annual leave entitlement.
Bonuses may be granted in the private sector (they will be taxed as well unlike the hidden perks under discussion here), but they will be tied to the performance of the individual and the organisation as a whole. If there's no money in the kitty, bonuses won't be paid.
Having worked as an employee and an employer in the private sector, I have been on both sides of the equation -
- work hard, long hours, tough times, little money, no bonus
- work hard, long hours, better times, some money, bonus paid.
But solicitors run their own businesses, surely they can decide when they close for annual leave, and I guarantee you that if they remain closed from now until January its because they know they won't have much to do.
The thread title might be a useful hint, i.e. "Re: Time off for Christmas shopping in public service."
Again come up with a number. Biffo, when he had the Finance portfolio, put the number at 260,000 in 2004/5 for the public service as a whole.
Hardly defensive. I was primarily pointing out some inaccuracies in your assumptions on bank time. It definitely doesn't stack up, and the figure would be more likely to be in or about a fifth of what you claim (three quarters of a quarter of your figure or 18.75%, rounded up to 20% for the sake of argument). That knocks about 100m from your calculations.Why so defensive j26?
I'm not fully aware of the figures for who gets any entitlement to privilege days or the infamous shopping time, and I did point that out. I don't believe all public servants have any entitlement to them, but I don't know how many are, so I'd be reluctant to hazard a guess on the numbers, other than to say I'd guess they mainly apply to office based staff who are by no means the majority of the public service.
If you want accurate figures, why not get your TD to ask a parliamentary question to the Minister for Finance?
I'd love to but they're on one of their looong holliers right now.
Some of the breaks they get are nearly as long as those enjoyed by, ehhmm, another group of people, also in the public sector.
Sshhhh - listen..... Is Santa arriving early, or is that a clamour I hear from the private sector for holiday parity?
[broken link removed]I'd love to but they're on one of their looong holliers right now.
Ah sure, the deficit will still be there in mid to late January.
sue_flaherty
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As usual its civil servant bashing time again as if all the woes in the economy were are fault. We aren't the ones who were getting massive salaries and bonuses. If you add the so called privelege day to most civil servants annual leave entitelment it would probably be the same as those in most private jobs. I know one person who works for a bank and each year they get an extra day off for their birthday.
I get 20 days a year. I have worked for 18 years.
I get no sick pay of any sort.
What do you get?
This is a straw man. Nobody is saying that we should cut the public sector wage bill because the public sector is the cause of our woe (that woe should be directed at the housing bubble and government policy). However, we cannot afford the current level of expenditure.
That means either we borrow to fund the deficit, cut public sector wages or trim the workforce. Borrowing is out as I figure we'll probably run out of willing creditors by June. So we must look at the others. As a public sector worker I'll admit I'd prefer to see redundancies rather than wage cuts but given that time is of the essence, an across the board percentage cut is probably preferable.
Perhaps not, the people enjoying these perks tend to be in the minority in either sector. This doesn't alter the facts though.
I'd be surprised if this is the case. Also I find it telling that whenever somebody on AAM wishes to highlight private sector profligacy, they always point to the banks. Banks are hardly representative of a typical private sector operator.
If you care to make a point about long holidays, high wages and massive bonuses enjoyed by SME workers in comparison to the public sector it would be more instructive.
Balance and reason, as usual.
I'm a civil servant, I get 23days holidays plus 2 privilege days and a half day christmas shopping. Total 25.5days, higher than the average? maybe by a day or so. I worked in the private sector till march this year and instead of a half day off for "shopping" I got a 15% bonus. hmmmmm, I wonder what was more valuable to me.
I wish they'd just roll it into our annual leave and just say we get 25.5days annual leave. nothing too extra ordinary about that.
Its the civil service, the rewards and drawbacks are different to private industry. Its the way things are. There are many problems with the workings of the civil service.
cutting the 1/2 day extra holiday isnt the solution, its just another stick to beat the civil sevice.
I worked in private industry till last march, the benefits working there far outweighed those of the civil service
I wish they'd just roll it into our annual leave and just say we get 25.5days annual leave. nothing too extra ordinary about that.
Its the civil service, the rewards and drawbacks are different to private industry. Its the way things are. There are many problems with the workings of the civil service.
cutting the 1/2 day extra holiday isnt the solution, its just another stick to beat the civil sevice.
I worked in private industry till last march, the benefits working there far outweighed those of the civil service
Was it in the SME sector?
Why did you move?
Z
z103
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Is it not 5.5 days extra ordinary?
Very true. And by the way, what some on here want you to accept is:
- less annual leave
- a pay cut
- lower pension rights
- less job security
- no union membership
Just a bit of flexibility to make up for market failure, that's all.
Have you read the rest of this thread?
Willowchase
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This thread has developed into a 'You versus us' debate.
To be fair, the vast majority of private sector P.A.Y.E. workers have never received a bonus in their lives. Most of them have in no way gained any additional benefits arising from the 'Celtic Tiger' economy except possibly by virtue of the fact they were able to obtain and/or hold on to employment. Those who made the killings, apart from the property developers etc. were those who were self employed and could name their price for the services they offered.
Now, many of these workers fear for their jobs. Most of those lucky enough not to have lost them yet realise that there is little prospect of any salary increase in the near future and possibly a reduction, notwithstanding any national wage agreement.
Again, most public sector employees are not on massive wages and put in many hard hours with little prospect of recognition or gratitude from either their employers or the public. They're not the ones going on junkets etc. So what if they may be entitled to an extra half day a year. This is only very small beer.
The only meaningful difference between the public service and the private sector (P.A.Y.E. particularly) is job security and guaranteed defined benefit index linked pensions. Unfortunately many private sector workers have no pension at all. A price needs to be placed on this benefit.