There are too many Unions in Ireland ?

A

ajapale

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Natchessmen
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Posts: 240
(12/1/05 8:31 pm)
Re: >>List of Unions in Ireland
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I feel compelled to snort at this nearly endless list .

When I worked in Germany years ago I believe there were 5 unions for the 40 (or so) million workers .....makes ya think eh?

I have nothing against unions but the concept of organised labour and the length of this list do seem incompatable.
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Natchessmen thinks there are too many unions in Ireland. What do you think?
 
Yes! I haven't looked at the list but I bet half of them are public sector unions - don't get me started!! :mad
 
Of the 50 or so Unions and Societies listed 20(40%) are solely for NI/UK.

Of the 50 or so Unions and Societies listed only 15 (30%) are exlcusively Public Service (or related ie ESB).

Originally I compiled the list of union websites as a reference for Work and Job related queries.

I know there has been considerable consolidation of Trade Unions over the last decade or so. Many of the unions listed are quite tiny.

ajapale
 
"many are tiny .." that is exactly my point I remember years ago trying to put through a productivity deal in a situation where 90% of the workers were represented by 3 unions and the remining 10% by a further 12 or so.

In the event one union representing one guy held up the deal for many many months. He was in the painters union (I think)but we had outsourced this activity 15 years previouly he was redeployed but retained membership of his original union.... I have to reiterate I am in no way againest the trade union movement.
 
Might it be that a number of them are family bailiwicks ( just like some building societies in the past ) ?

Providing a nice enough lifestyle to people who might otherwise be unemployed .....
 
When I worked in Germany years ago I believe there were 5 unions for the 40 (or so) million workers .....makes ya think eh?
Click to expand...
Hi Natchessman - According to [broken link removed], the sixteen unions listed make up about 80% of trade union membership in Germany, so it looks like your claim of 5 unions was a little exaggerated.
 
Not by much though. A friend of mine made a comparison of trade unions in Ireland and Germany part of the subject of her thesis when we were in college (so about ten years ago). One interesting fact I've always remembered is that at one stage there were more unions in CIE than there were in the whole of Germany. I've always supported the trade union movement and since I was a teenager thought it was a fantastic concept. However in practice in today's workplace, I've rarely seen anything to encourage me to ever join a union.
 
Some Facts to illuminate the debate hopefully:
[broken link removed]

Affiliated Unions 2004There are unions for all groups of workers; industrial, professional, managerial, clerical or unskilled. Approximately half of all employees are members of unions and 44% of union membership are women! . A detailed breakdown of trade union membership is set down below:

There are 56 unions affiliated to Congress in 2004 with a total membership of 754,899. This reflects an overall reduction of 10,845 over the twelve months period during 2003.

In the Republic, total affiliation was 546,820 in 42 unions. The total represents a reduction in affiliated membership of 3,981. While a number of unions recorded gains in membership particularly SIPTU (+3,011), IMPACT (+1,000), TUI (+804) and NUJ (+618) significant reductions are evident in respect of AMICUS (-8,261), GPMU (-977) TEEU (-673) and ATGWU (-577).

In Northern Ireland, affiliation stands at 208,079 in 31 unions. This number reflects a reduction of 6,883. The most significant gains among unions in Northern Ireland were by NIPSA (+1,824) and UNISON (+1,000). Significant losses were recorded by AMICUS (-5,160), IBOA (-1,360) and ATGWU (-1,167).

Seventeen Unions have membership in both the Republic and Northern Ireland representing 398,060 members or 53% of the total.

Twenty five unions have membership exclusively in the Republic of Ireland representing 244,770 members or 32% of the total.

Fourteen unions have membership exclusively in Northern Ireland representing 112,069 members or 15% of the total
Click to expand...
 
Rainyday

Looks like I over egged the pudding, still the principle holds. I know we have have come through an era of consolidation with SIPTU, Impact, Unison etc becomeing the major players. It would be interesting to do a pareto analyis on the Irish situation today perhaps things have reached a sensible point. Referrng to my earlier post the type of person who clung to the "old union" was typically coming to retirment so the progress of time might have shifted the demographic towards the Germany model.

I agree that exaggeration does little to advance one's argument, and thanks for doing the legwork to put me straight.

Additional Note: didn't see AJP's before note posting mine which is pretty much what I was talking about.
 
Hi NatChessmen,

Here is the pareto analysis you were looking for. The numbers are slightly out of date 2000. Thanks to mmclo for the reference.

Code: 
Name of Union                                                     Members        %
Services Industrial Professional & Technical Union (SIPTU)        227,731      41%
Mandate - The Union of Retail, Bar and Administrative Workers      37,885       7%
Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union (IMPACT)             34,880       6%
Amicus-MSF                                                         32,051       6%
Technical Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU)                  28,559       5%
Irish Nurses' Organisation (INO)                                   27,241       5%
Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO)                       21,305       4%
Amalgamated Transport and General Workers Union (T&G)              18,218       3%
Communications Workers' Union (Ireland) (CWU)                      17,407       3%
ASTI                                                               16,022       3%
Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU)                             13,600       2%
Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians (UCATT)       11,300       2%
Teachers' Union of Ireland (TUI)                                   10,197       2%
Irish Bank Officials' Association (IBOA)                           10,005       2%
Building and Allied Trades Unions (BATU)                            8,565       2%
Public Service Executive Union (PSEU)                               6,418       1%
Psychiatric Nurses Union of Ireland                                 4,285       1%
Graphical Paper and Media Union (GPMU)                              4,161       1%
Irish Medical Organisation (IMO)                                    4,135       1%
Operative Plasterers and Allied Trades Society of Ireland (OPATSI)  3,357       1%
Prison Officers' Association (POA)                                  2,911       1%
National Union of Journalists (NUJ)                                 2,807       1%
National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU)                                  2,452       0%
Electricity Supply Board's Officer's Association (ESBOA)            2,057       0%
Irish Postmasters' Union                                            1,570       0%
Transport Salaried Staffs' Association (TSSA)                       1,391       0%
Irish Federation of University Teachers (IFUT)                      1,347       0%
National Union of Sheet Metal Workers of Ireland (NUSMWI)           1,140       0%
Union of Motor, Technical and Industrial Employees                  1,089       0%
Bakers, Food & Allied Workers Union                                   854       0%
Guinness Staff Union (GSU)                                            816       0%
Sales, Marketing and Administrative Union of Ireland (SMAUI)          560       0%
Seaman's Union of Ireland (SUI)                                       518       0%
Veterinary Officers Association (VOA)                                 318       0%
Irish Federation of Musicians and Associated Professionals            312       0%
Association of Irish Traditional Musicians (AITM) (no website known)  144       0%
National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT)          120       0%
Institution of Engineers in Ireland                                   117       0%
Veterinary Ireland (VI)                                                57       0%
Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union (BECTU)     51       0%
National League of the Blind (NLB)                                     24       0%
X                                                                 557,977      100%
 
Ajp,

So 80% of people are covered in (9) 29% of listed unions... that is not as extreme as I though thanks for the work.


Nat
 
Don't mean to be too picky, but the Institution of Engineers has about 15,000 - 20,000 members. In addition, it's not a Union. The rest of the thread is excellent by the way - definitely one that will be brought up inthe pub.
 
Hi Imperator,

The list is based on those unions/organisations which have a labour negotiating licence. AFAIK the IEI had negotiating rights for a very small number of engineers. This is an historical throw back and might not exist any more.

ajapale
 
The small number of unions in Germany has a lot to do with the consolidation that took place post second world war under British and American rule. There was a fear that a fractured political and (to a lesser extent) trade union system would see a return to the instability of the post WW1 Wiemar republic. For example a political party had to get 5% of the vote in order to take a seat.
 
Thats very interesting Purple,

In Ireland there are government grants for unions merging. This [broken link removed] explains the rationale behind restricting negotiation rights.
Under section 6 of the Trade Union Act 1941 every organisation intending to enter into collective bargaining "for the fixing of wages or other conditions of employment" must obtain from the Minister for Enterprise and Employment a negotiation licence. This licence must be granted if certain conditions are satisfied, including in particular a minimum membership and the deposit of a sum of money with the High Court. The main purpose of the section is to make difficult the formation of new trade unions and thus to avoid further trade union proliferation. Certain bodies possessing excepted body status (mainly staff associations or other specialised organisations) do not require a negotiation licence. The statutory requirement applies both to trade unions and to employers' associations.

Section 21 of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 made considerable changes to the requirements for obtaining a negotiation licence: it doubled the minimum membership requirement from 500 to 1,000, and the deposit to be lodged with the High Court has been substantially increased. The minimum deposit is now IR£20,000 with a maximum of IR£60,000, whereas the minimum was previously IR£5,000.
Click to expand...

ajapale
 
Since the problem seems to be that one employer might have to negotiate with five or six unions and two or three people can hold things up for hundreds, should it be the case that only a limited number of unions should be recognised within each company/ organisation?
 
To some degree we have to accept that unions are bottom up organisations so it's for workers and members t freely establish them.

A lot of this is the product of history, as we can see from the list some unions, particularly craft unions, are very specialised and the negotiations might involve specialist knowledge.

The growth of social partnership has rather negated the need for negotiating skills but who knows how long this will last.

It's funny reading about the 1941 Act (I actually did a thesis on this period - how sad!). One of the unspoken aims of the Act was to get rid of British Unions as Fianna Fail and Dev couldn't stand this hangover from pre independence, they would have preferred a multiple of irish small unions. It didn't really succeed.

Some smaller British craft unions have declined but so have craft unions in general.

If anybody is still awake a good source in this area is Charles Mc Carthy's seminal "Hidtory of Irish Trade Unions"
 
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