The "Poverty Trap" budget

[Complainer]

It had an impact on the decision, but nowhere near what you are stating and was not the primary or even secondary reason. As mentioned the valves my friend produces are highly specialized, and the people that operate the machines are not unskilled workers. He set out with full intention of expanding his existing operation in Germany and hadn't considered setting up in China, as he thought it would be too much hassle. The main factors were that after 5 months the local council still refused to grant him permission to expand his premisses, then there was some bizarre EU tariff on the machinery he could source cheaper abroad, and when his workers' union decided that a business expansion plan was enough to demand higher wages for existing workers he simply had enough. He still has his operation in Germany, but all his expansions will be done in China. A picture perfect example of red tape, bureaucracy, tariffs and union demands having the exact opposite effect of what the intentions were.

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

 

[Purple]

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

 

[Firefly]

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

Ever buy anything made in China?

 

[Firefly]

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

This reminds me of contract employees in the public sector here - just toss em on in the dole queue when you're done. I take it you don't think this is fair either.

 

[demoivre]

Children of wealthy families get to pay for better education services, and therefore get better opportunities to create wealth, and therefore get to pay for better education for their families.

Plenty of not so wealthy families prioritise their kids education. €6k or thereabouts would pay the fees for a kid in a grind school for a year. A "poor" couple on welfare spend €6,314 a year if they are both 20 a day smokers. ( €8.65 a day x 2 x 365)

Ah the stereotypical smoking and drinking welfare recipient - don't forget to have a dig about spending on Sky and flat-screen TVs while you're up there on the high moral ground.

Not on any high moral ground - just a simple example to highlight your diatribe. It's just so, so, soooooooooo easy to discredit almost everything you come out with. Generally I can't be bothered doing it but Purple, amongst others, does so with aplomb on a daily basis - I guess that's why you've blocked him.

 

[Purple]

Ever buy anything made in China?

No, it's better to oppose businesses investing in China. That way we protect jobs in the West and keep Chinese people trapped in a cycle of subsistence farming and poverty.
See despite what socialists would like to think the only thing that has ever raised people out of poverty is capitalism. The movement of capital, the economic activity which that capital generates and a responsible government that can raise taxes for the state from that economic activity is what raises people from poverty and, probably more importantly, gives them hope that their children will have a better life than they had. Well meaning fools who are blinded to that reality by a philosophical bias would, despite their best intentions, see the poorest in the world stay that way.

 

[Superman]

No, it's better to oppose businesses investing in China. That way we protect jobs in the West and keep Chinese people trapped in a cycle of subsistence farming and poverty.
See despite what socialists would like to think the only thing that has ever raised people out of poverty is capitalism. The movement of capital, the economic activity which that capital generates and a responsible government that can raise taxes for the state from that economic activity is what raises people from poverty and, probably more importantly, gives them hope that their children will have a better life than they had.

The only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is not being exploited by capitalism.

 

[thedaras]

Some of my favourite quotes;

Socialists make the mistake of confusing individual worth with success. They believe you cannot allow people to succeed in case those who fail feel worthless.

I pass the test that says a man who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart, and a man who is a socialist at 40 has no head.


There is nothing in socialism that a little age or a little money will not cure.


What is a Communist? One who has yearnings for equal division of unequal earnings.

 

[Chris]

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

Ah yes that ever common socialist crap that without government evil capitalists would be killing both the employees producing stuff and consumers buying stuff. Here is what the real world is like. Entrepreneurs benefit most when their customers are not harmed by their products and when employees are not harmed during production. Not being sued for causing bodily harm (which you do not need endless regulation for) and retaining employees and customers is far more profitable than reducing your workforce and customers by harming them.
Industrial and employment regulations mandated by government did not exist for almost the entire industrial revolution, but real wages, working conditions and product quality all increased. But this is something socialists simply cannot understand or refuse to accept.

My friend uses the same machines in China as he does in Germany and the workers have the same training and safety rules as recommended by the manufacturer and his years of experience. No matter how many socialist clichés you pull out of your bag they all remain fictitious and totally unfounded in facts.

And yes, life is extremely hard for those people that risk everything to satisfy consumers and provide jobs. That is why they are a minority and why most people do not succeed and very few people know what it's like.

No, it's better to oppose businesses investing in China. That way we protect jobs in the West and keep Chinese people trapped in a cycle of subsistence farming and poverty.
See despite what socialists would like to think the only thing that has ever raised people out of poverty is capitalism. The movement of capital, the economic activity which that capital generates and a responsible government that can raise taxes for the state from that economic activity is what raises people from poverty and, probably more importantly, gives them hope that their children will have a better life than they had. Well meaning fools who are blinded to that reality by a philosophical bias would, despite their best intentions, see the poorest in the world stay that way.

Yes to most of it; I would add thought that the duty of responsible government is to protect property rights and individual liberty. As soon as these rights are infringed upon, things start going bad.

The only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is not being exploited by capitalism.

Very good, I hadn't heard it before.

 

[Chris]

You should get him to expand his Chinese company into Ireland. He can't get grants from the IDA moving within the EU but he can expanding from China into Ireland. He'll then get his low taxes, grants and access to the EU without duties.

Interesting, I'll let him know, but I don't think this will be of much benefit since he mainly sells to water, oil and gas companies in the Middle East and Canada.

Also, a little update on a previous argument about wages being 1/10 or 1/50 in China. My friend emailed me and said that his workers get the equivalent of $3 to $3.50 per hour. He does not pay his German workers anything near between $30 and $150 per hour.

 

[Deiseblue]

One of my favourites is " under capitalism , man exploits man - under socialism the reverse is true "

Just as well then that the Irish Labour Party are social democrats

 

[T McGibney]

Life's so hard for entrepreneurs, isn't it? All those mean bureacrats who get all uppity about trivial little things like keeping the rivers clean and keeping the workers with all four of their limbs. Much better to head off to China where you don't have to worry about that stuff - disposable Chinese workers are so much easier - just toss em in the skip when you're done.

Anyone with 4,852 posts should be above this sort of cynical trolling.

 

[Purple]

Interesting, I'll let him know, but I don't think this will be of much benefit since he mainly sells to water, oil and gas companies in the Middle East and Canada.

Also, a little update on a previous argument about wages being 1/10 or 1/50 in China. My friend emailed me and said that his workers get the equivalent of $3 to $3.50 per hour. He does not pay his German workers anything near between $30 and $150 per hour.

Where I work our second biggest, and fastest growing, sector is oil and gas companies. We've no problem manufacturing and exporting from Ireland though we are under pressure from our customers to open a plant in Eastern Europe in order to capture new business.

 

[Complainer]

This reminds me of contract employees in the public sector here - just toss em on in the dole queue when you're done. I take it you don't think this is fair either.

The more you nag, the less motivated I am to think about answering this issue.

I guess that's why you've blocked him.

The reason I blocked was because of personalised abuse. I'm happy to debate anything with anybody, as my long record on AAM will show. I don't take abuse from anybody.

 

[Purple]

The reason I blocked was because of personalised abuse. I'm happy to debate anything with anybody, as my long record on AAM will show. I don't take abuse from anybody.

One man’s abuse is another man’s discussion.
If I have offended I offer my more heart-felt apologies (and no, I’m not being sarcastic ).

 

[Complainer]

Also, a little update on a previous argument about wages being 1/10 or 1/50 in China. My friend emailed me and said that his workers get the equivalent of $3 to $3.50 per hour. He does not pay his German workers anything near between $30 and $150 per hour.

Sounds like your buddy is a bit over-generous in China and a bit mean in Germany.

Average manufacturing wages in China - $3.10 an hour ([broken link removed])
Average manufacturing wages in Germany - $48 per hour (http://prospect.org/article/business-booming-0)

 

[Sunny]

Merry Christmas everyone. Seriously, coming from someone who works in investment banking, with a hatred of socialism, unions and other left wing rubbish, complainer does have a point. Pure capitalism is as much of a failure as pure socialism. I know people will argue that we never had pure capitalism but when Governments decided deregulating or light touch regulation was the way to go, how did the corporate world treat everyone?

 

[Complainer]

Merry Christmas everyone. Seriously, coming from someone who works in investment banking, with a hatred of socialism, unions and other left wing rubbish, complainer does have a point. Pure capitalism is as much of a failure as pure socialism. I know people will argue that we never had pure capitalism but when Governments decided deregulating or light touch regulation was the way to go, how did the corporate world treat everyone?

Funnily enough, I was coming close to giving up on AAM all together, but you've inspired me to keep going for another year or two. Merry Xmas Sunny.

 

[blueband]

Also, a little update on a previous argument about wages being 1/10 or 1/50 in China. My friend emailed me and said that his workers get the equivalent of $3 to $3.50 per hour. He does not pay his German workers anything near between $30 and $150 per hour.

are you sure thats not per day!

 

[Sunny]

Funnily enough, I was coming close to giving up on AAM all together, but you've inspired me to keep going for another year or two. Merry Xmas Sunny.

God, dont give up. Internet forums are only interesting when people have different opinions. If we all thought the same, it would be extremely boring. Of course, purple will probably put me on his ignore list now!