The new Personal Insolvency Act is headed for failure

Dr.Debt

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"Train spotter" that I am , I have spent many hours pouring over the new Insolvency bill. Under current circumstances, I just cant see how its going to work and the Minister will need to amend it very quickly or we risk letting the banks, force this country to its knees for another thirty years.

It appears to me that the position of each of the parties is as follows

1) Minister for Justice
has repeatedly said that we need to resolve the unsustainable debt in our economy and we need to do this to allow people to get on with their lives and restore growth to the economy as early as possible. The PIB is framed in such a way that insolvent debtors will pay as much as possible towards their debts for the 1st five or six years of the arrangement after which time, the remaining debt will be written off. Unfortunately there is a veto in the bill that will allow the banks to dictate the outcomes in most cases and the big worry is that the banks have repeatedly said that there will be no write-offs whatsoever. It seems to me that the banks will "play" with this piece of legislation. Shatter has said that he will review the legislation early if it seems that the banks are not cooperating. The battle lines are drawn.Only time will tell if Minister Shatter is also playing for time or if he is really serious about getting this piece of legislation to work as intended.

2) The Banks
are between a rock and a hard place. They are worried that they wont be able to keep the flood gates closed if they start down the road of "debt forgiveness" Their balance sheets are not strong enough for massive debt write off and they worry about separating the "cant pays" from the "wont pays" Some commentators are beginning to think that the arrears problem in the Irish banks is a lot worse than reported and the impairment provisions are under-stated. If the banks need further capitalization, its unclear where it will come from. The banks current solution appears to involve "parking" or "warehousing" unsustainable debt into the future. For example if a debtor owes 500K and can only service 200K, the reamaining 300K is "parked" until the 1st 200K is dealt with and then the intention is to work on a repayment plan for the remaining 300K.This is a dangerous game by the banks. The debtor has one ace left in his hand. His choice is to sign up for the bank "master plan" OR file for bankruptcy. The banks are gambling that individuals will shy away from the bankruptcy option. I think they're wrong

3) The Debtor
is frustrated at the lack of action by the banks. Many have lived the nightmare for a number of years already. It seems to me that very few will want to sign up for 30 years of debt repayment. It doesn't make sense.

My worry is that the government will shirk their responsibility to solve the crisis. They have drafted the Personal Insolvency bill which in itself is a powerful framework to resolve the issues however it falls down completely by placing the balance of power in the hands of the banks. The dilemma is that the banks will act in the interests of the banks (as they have always done) and not in the interests of the people or the economy.

The bottom line is clear. As a country, we will need to write off debt and we will need to recapitalize the banks again in doing so. This is a government responsibility and the big mistake now is delegating it to the banks who are lining up to make a big problem, even bigger.

The discussion that should be taking place is a recognition that the PIB will involve writing off debt (which it does) which inevitably will result in recapitalizations of the banks. The government should be considering how to handle such a recapitalization.There is no visible discussion on this subject at all. We cant fix the economy if we don't properly address the debt crisis. The situation is farcical.

If every Tom Dick and Harriet can see no way out of their individual financial messes and all decide to go bankrupt (and the real danger here is that it could become "fashionable" / acceptable to go bankrupt) then the banks will be forced to write off ALL the debt rather than a PART of the debt which might otherwise be possible under a properly functioning insolvency act. The banks are gambling again with the tax payers money and I'm not sure everyone realises that yet.

I have communicated recently with several individuals who are waiting to have their problems solved, and owing typically 300K on failed property investments. All of them would be willing to pay back around half the amount owed, provided the bank is willing to write off the other half. None of them are prepared to spend the rest of their lives paying back a debt and having nothing to show for it at the end. They all speak about bankruptcy as the only show in town. The banks are acting tough and attempting to play the "long game". It wont work.The banks really need to tune into the Personal Insolvency Bill OR they will end up writing off a lot more bankruptcy debt than would otherwise be necessary. The banks are in survival mode. Things will have to change and change quickly.

I have no confidence that the banks will actually do what needs to be done. The banks want to avoid further recapitalizations at all costs or anything that will increase government ownership and control. Buckle up, we're in for for bumpy ride
 
Excellent post.

If every Tom Dick and Harriet can see no way out and decides to go bankrupt and the danger is that it could become "fashionable" then the banks will be forced to write off ALL the debt rather than a PART of a debt which might be possible under a properly working insolvency act. The banks are gambling again with the tax payers money and Im not sure everyone realises that

The vast majority of people do not realise this. There are a lot of professional, well educated people on this forum that have not grasped this basic concept. It is simple arithmetic.

The domino effect has yet to begin. The PIB will fail when the hoards file for bankruptcy. And file for bankruptcy they will. Can you blame them?

My OH works closely with debtors; I can tell you people are at breaking point.
 
You are right with all you said from what i have seen with my husband. Why not go bankrupt?

And who can blame the bank from doing what is in the banks best interest but bankers are short sighted people who are in an insolvent bank so they are against the wall. And if they do what is necessary for the country to get back on its feet the banks effectively go broke very fast and need a bail out or they can keep everyone on a lifetime of debt on interest only payments and they may stay in business a bit longer but the country stays broke.

At the time I thought that the bank bail out was a good idea but now I believe we should have let them fail. We would have had loan books sold off very cheaply and the new owners would have looked to realize what they could from the loan book and written off the rest. Que everyone getting back on with life and having a future to work for in which without the debt hanging over us we could afford to pay a bit more tax which would of brought our national budget in to order.

I am wondering if its a plan from above to hide the real problems in the banks so that we can get Europe to underwrite the future bank bail outs and then the reality comes to light.



Mod Edit: discussion about Central Bank Survey moved here.
 
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The shortsighted decisions of the banks will be made this year. I would love to see people bankrupt themselves before they become mere slaves to the glorified charities that we call banks.

The country currently does not have a banking system anyway. Capitalism has failed. Wake up boys!
 
3) The Debtor
is frustrated at the lack of action by the banks. Many have lived the nightmare for a number of years already. It seems to me that very few will want to sign up for 30 years of debt repayment. It doesnt make sense to anybody.

You have written a very detailed post, but this part is a bit strange for me... in many cases those with significant negative equity have already signed up for the 30/35/40 repayment term. Can you please elaborate on this point?
 
The shortsighted decisions of the banks will be made this year. I would love to see people bankrupt themselves before they become mere slaves to the glorified charities that we call banks.

The country currently does not have a banking system anyway. Capitalism has failed. Wake up boys!

Capitalism didn't fail its just we as a government didn't let failed businesses fail. Instead we done what a communist dictatorship would of done. If we had of let it fail like iceland we would be closer to recovery
 
You have written a very detailed post, but this part is a bit strange for me... in many cases those with significant negative equity have already signed up for the 30/35/40 repayment term. Can you please elaborate on this point?

Those who have sold most of their assets or all of their assets are being asked to pay as much as they can afford for the next 15 years and the bank will warehouse the rest of their debt that you cannot afford to repay at the moment. The idea being in the meantime you keep your remaining assets which are worth less than your 15 year debt and you probably in the future can buy out the warehoused debt for a fraction of what it is and the bank will write off the balance. But in reality that is not a fact its a hope and if you are pessimistic what happens in 15 years time when you have paid the bank off all you can afford so you retain ownership of your asset you still owe them a chunk of money and they say sorry no write off you can start over again and start repaying the balance that was warehoused.
Whereas if you just gave up and went bankrupt you probably could buy back that asset with savings in 7 or 8 years time. And the bank will be far worse off then as they will have a much bigger write off. Then writing off the warehoused part at the start
 
Hi Dr Debt

Very interesting and thought provoking post.

I agree that the bill is probably headed for failure regarding the family home.

I think it will successfully deal with unsecured debts and it certainly improves the position of people who need to go bankrupt. (Of course, for those who can travel, the UK is still the best option for bankruptcy).

The banks have overprovided for any losses which might arise on home loans. I discuss this in this Key Post.

The banks have overprovided even more for any losses which might arise on residential investment property.

They might need to be recapitalised for further losses on development property and business loans - I just don't know.

Burmo makes a very good point here
You have written a very detailed post, but this part is a bit strange for me... in many cases those with significant negative equity have already signed up for the 30/35/40 repayment term.

People forget this. They entered into 30 year mortgages. They may well struggle for 5 years of this period. But the economy will recover and while it will be a long time before house prices ever recover their 2007 highs, they should increase over the remaining 25 years of the mortgage.

We tend to focus on the very bad cases. People with massive negative equity and massive arrears. But these are a small minority. Most people in negative equity are not in arrears. And 25% of those in arrears have equity in their home. Of the 75% in arrears and negative equity, most of them are not in massive negative equity.

Around half the problem loans have cheap trackers. The banks should not be expected to write off these without converting them to SVR loans. If the person threatens bankruptcy, the bank will simply repossess the home and relend the money at the SVR. The bank won't care if the borrower then goes bankrupt or not.

I have spoken to people in good jobs in heavy negative equity but who want to trade up. They think it's a disgrace that the banks won't write off their negative equity. I have told them that the new regime is for people who are insolvent. It is not for people who have buyer's regret.

I hope that the new legislation will make the banks much more ready to do deals without the need for a Personal Insolvency Arrangement. You should be able to agree something with your bank on a one to one basis. I expect that the banks will do deals. Where the borrower is unreasonable they will go for an expensive PIA and the lenders will veto it.

Brendan
 
The Personal Insolvency Act was signed into law by President Higgins on 26 December 2012. However, it will not be effective for a number of months yet, as the new Insolvency Service needs to be fully established first.

I would not be as pessimistic as Dr. Debt and say that the Act is headed towards failure. The reality on the ground is that the banks are finally coming around to the commercial benefits of doing deals as opposed to watching their borrowers move to the UK, availing of bankruptcy and then having to appoint receivers to pick up the pieces. The Act will help to accelerate the banks towards debt resolution.


The Act will be particuraly useful to borrowers who are multi-banked, i.e. loans with two or more banks. By way of example, if a borrower owes Bank A €2m, and Bank B €1m, if he can persuade Bank A to accept a dividend of, say, 50 cent in the euro, then Bank B would also be obliged to accept 50 cent in the euro under a Debt Settlement Arrangement, as Bank A's vote is greater than the 65% threshold required by the new Debt Settlement Arrangement.

Borrowers who only owe liabilities to one bank will, in my view, not be allowed to enter into a Debt settlement Arrangement or a Personal Insolvency Arrangement by their bank. The bank will insist on hammering out their own deal with the borrower concerned, and thereby achieve a greater return by saving on the costs of the Personal Insolvency Practitioner.

Jim Stafford
 
Jim

I agree with you that the banks will try to avoid the Personal Insolvency Act,
preferring instead to try and bash out their own deals, in cases where they would have the necessary 41% veto. (or 50% / 50% in the case of a PIA)

That leaves the cases where there is more than one lender involved and no lender has the necessary 41% / 50% veto rights. I would have thought this category will be very small.

If this is true, then very few cases will manage to go through without veto and the Act will be a failure................
 
@Jim Stafford
I think in the example you gave, Bank A will veto the arrangement as they will have the necessary voting capital to do so. I do agree that in cases where there are three banks involved and lets say they are owed 1 million each, then the PIA may have a role. Otherwise I dont think the new act will have the teeth or affect that some people are counting on or waiting for.
 
@Jim Stafford
I think in the example you gave, Bank A will veto the arrangement as they will have the necessary voting capital to do so. I do agree that in cases where there are three banks involved and lets say they are each owed 1 million, then in this type of case the PIA may have a role. Otherwise I dont think the new act will have the teeth or affect that some people are counting on.

Jim has made the very important point that if Bank A sees a sensible deal and agrees to it, then Bank B and other smaller creditors must fall into line with it.

Obviously Bank A can veto a deal, but Bank B can't veto a deal which Bank A agrees to.

Jim - it's interesting that you think that borrowers with only one lender won't get the benefit of the Act.

Brendan
 
And of course the banks will continue to use the threat of imprisonment against those who refuse to accept their own deals. PIA will not help those debtors at all.
 
And of course the banks will continue to use the threat of imprisonment against those who refuse to accept their own deals. PIA will not help those debtors at all.

Hi Time

I had not heard of banks threatening imprisonment? Have you any evidence for this?

Brendan
 
Banks can threaten, but have no rights to incarcerate a debtor. Time, may be referring to the potential for a debtor to be incarcerated for breaching a Court approved installment order (rarely used). As far as I am aware this is the only circumstance where a Bank can apply for commital proceedings against a defaulter.
 
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Correct.

The banks are continuing to use this measure against many debtors. This is evident at any district court sitting where the list for instalment orders is huge.
 
Hi Time

A bank is fully entitled to apply for an instalment order.

And consequently, a bank is fully entitled to tell a debtor that they will apply for an instalment order if they don't pay up.

But they would not be entitled to threaten someone with "imprisonment". If you are aware of such threats being made, you should report them to the Central Bank as they would be in breach of the Consumer Protection Code.

Brendan
 
There is a maxim that states a camel is a horse designed by a committee. I would apply a similar maxim to the Personal Insolvency Act: it was effectively designed by a committee who listened to the diverse views of the affected intersted parties, and devised a compromise document that does not fully satisfy the wishes any one group. Whilst the Act has flaws (particularly the necessity to refer every Debt Settlement Agreement or Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the Circuit or High Court, with the attendant delays and costs) it is certainly a step in the right direction.

Jim Stafford
 
particularly the necessity to refer every Debt Settlement Agreement or Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the Circuit or High Court,

I must have missed this. Does the bill require one to do this? Who is going to pay those costs? Surely the whole purpose of this bill was to avoid court and allow agreements between banks and their debtors.
 
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