The Lisbon vote

I have no firm view on the merits of privatising public services. Can you explain why you think it is bad? As far as I'm aware in parts of Canada the public are given credits to buy their health care from private operators. It appears to work for them. Doesn't a regulated private sector where competition exists benefit the consumer.
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the aim of private business is to maximise profit as efficently and cost effectively as possible. I have nothing against that. Schools however are not businesses they are places where the community try to create caring informed citizens who want to make the world a better place and yes add to the economic good of the community. Idealistic I know but thats the beauty in working in education you try to give the kids you teach a sense that they can change the world. Privatise education and what your going to get is the languege of business "targets, competition, profit, strong survive weak fail".

1. utlimatly schools run with a business agenda /ideology will promote subject choices that are seen as important to the knowledge economy i.e science/business at the expence of the humanities which are seen as irilivent.

2. . A Business model will look to quantify i.e Move towards league tables to distinguish between so called good bad schools ignoring the fact that it is impossible to quantify valuable things that go on in state schools every day. under a privitaed system these valuable things would be marginilised.

3. Under budgetary constraints schools will tend to want to employ cheap, less-experienced teachers over older, more experienced ones.

I could go on but I will be here all night.

Believe if you want in the powerof the business model to make education better. The business model will train our children to work in call centers and as lackies for microsoft and google but it will not educate them.

One final thing. Do you really want your kids to be "Consumers of education". There is something very philosophically worrying about that.

"There can be no education philosophy that does not address what learning is for. Confucious, Plato, Quintilian, Cicero, Comensius, Erasmus, Locke, Rousseau, Jefferson, Russell, Montissori, Whitehead, and Dewey--each believed there was some transcendent political, spiritual, or social idea that must be advanced through education...Cicero argued that education must free the student from the tyranny of the present. Jefferson thought the purpose of education is to teach the young how to protect their liberties. Rousseau wished education to free young from the unnatural constraints of a wicked and arbitrary social order. And among John Dewey's aims was to help the student function without certainty in a world of constant change and puzzling ambiguities"
 
television said:
the aim of private business is to maximise profit as efficently and cost effectively as possible. I have nothing against that. But apply that to schools and you will end up with a disaster.
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I agree with you totally on this.
Just because it might be cost effective doesn't mean it's good for the future of our most important resource, our children.

Its all very well for the children of the money men, our politicians they get to go to private schools that have no problems with funding.
My sons primary school has to scrounge money now for water rates and this problem will become worse when privatisation happens.
Its like a previous poster said our schools will be having a lot more cake sales.
 
Doesn't a regulated private sector where competition exists benefit the consumer
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Yes it does but not in education or health in my opinion. and if you want to be defined as a Consumer go ahead. I am a citizen however. Do you notice how ordinary people are being increasing refered to as consumers rather than citizens.
 
S.L.F said:
And since our elected reps haven't read it either it's not really surprising that people are going to be voting no!
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For McCreevy to come out and express himself the way he did about not having read the treaty was clearly stupid. It has certainly given ammunition to the No side. Cowen's statement that he had not read the treaty "cover to cover" is not unreasonable. Reading the treaty from cover to cover is pretty much a futile exercise. As has been pointed out by others it only really makes sense to read the Consolidated Treaties as amended by the Lisbon Treaty otherwise you're completely lacking the context to understand the changes. I suppose we can argue forever about what version of the Treaty he was talking about but it wouldn't get us very far as we don't know. We do know that Cowen was Minister for Foreign Affairs during the Irish Presidency of the European Union in 2004 during which time the main changes proposed under Lisbon were agreed as part of the Constitutional Treaty for Europe. I think it's reasonable to assume he has a thorough grounding in the issues given his involvement in those negotiations.

I really feel the No side are making a bit much of this though. I'm sure all the No voters here would be rushing to vote yes if only McCreevy and Cowen had solemnly declared they had read the entire tome from cover to cover several times. Somehow I doubt it. If you're already convinced malevolent Europe is out to get us what difference would that make?

In any case, you cannot conclude that the entire political class have not read the treaty and are ignorant of its contents just on the basis of these comments.
 
well if we knew they had read it enterly we might be a bit confident to vote yes....its like a salesman telling you they are selling you a great product, but they are not sure exactly how it works!
 
starlite68 said:
well if we knew they had read it enterly we might be a bit confident to vote yes....its like a salesman telling you they are selling you a great product, but they are not sure exactly how it works!
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You are still totally ignoring the fact that there are more than 3 people are tasked with reading this treaty! Do you totally disregard the opinions of

  1. [broken link removed]
  2. [broken link removed]
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  4. IFA
  5. ICMSA
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  8. and Fianna Fail
(as I mentioned previously) or are you just looking for reasons to reinforce your prejudice against a YES vote.
 
to awnser the last part of your question...i have not fully made up my mind how i will vote..although i am leaning towards a NO, mainly due to the issues around the privatision of health..edcuation ect. funny how our politiacians have been hedgeing around this issue..but then its hardly going to affect them!
 
S.L.F said:
Harchibald,
it was the people of this country who voted in the goverment, who are trying to get us to vote for this.

If you are saying we can't be trusted to vote properly then in that case we voted for the wrong govt in. You can't have it both ways
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I actually think the people were wrong last year. I do believe in democracy but that does not mean that referenda are infallible, if that were the case we would submit the more contentious aspects of Einstein's Theory of Relativity for decision by the Irish voters.:rolleyes:

But back to the point, it is not merely that the government are promoting Yes but every conceivable government that might have been returned last year are also supporting Yes. Sinn Fein versus the Rest, sorry no brainer for me and I have read none of the Treaty.
 
television said:
Yes it does but not in education or health in my opinion. and if you want to be defined as a Consumer go ahead. I am a citizen however. Do you notice how ordinary people are being increasing refered to as consumers rather than citizens.
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I'm not entirely convinced by the talk of a platonic ideal of education as practiced in Ireland. My memory of school was learning by rote and very little true understanding. This goes all the way up to and including undergraduate courses. I suspect there's an element of teachers fearing the private sector where their performance in educating pupils might be measured. I think they've got a lot less to fear than they think. There's a lot of under-performers that survive in the private sector too. But the merits or otherwise of privatisation is a separate discussion.

What are the specifics in the treaty that you think will lead to Irish schools and hospitals being privatised against the will of the Irish people and Government?
 
starlite68 said:
but as you have just said..these are opinions....noting more
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yes but opinions of people who have a lot of expertise, knowledge and a proven history in the area. Back to my doctor analogy. When you have a sick stomach do you regard your doctors opinion as just another opinion on a par with the butchers and priests?

starlite68 said:
to awnser the last part of your question...i have not fully made up my mind how i will vote..although i am leaning towards a NO, mainly due to the issues around the privatision of health..edcuation ect. funny how our politiacians have been hedgeing around this issue..but then its hardly going to affect them!
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What issues? The issues Sinn Fein and Coir are introducing to cloud the debate? The lisbon treaty has nothing to do with privatisation of our health or education service! Do you think closer integration with France (probably the best public health service in the world) is going to result in more privatisation of our health service. Where's the logic?
 
do you really think there is not going be more and more privatisation in the years to come if we vote yes?
 
The lisbon treaty has nothing to do with privatisation of our health or education service! Do you think closer integration with France (probably the best public health service in the world) is going to result in more privatisation of our health service. Where's the logic
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The nordic system of health and education provision are under attack by neo liberalism as is the french.
 
I hope so, but that has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.
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First of all the lisbon treaty gives great significant to issues like competition and liberalisation of public services.

Privitisation of health will lead to vast swathes of poor people not being able to afford health care. If you think thats morally right good luck to you. then again morality has nothing to do with the business ethic.
 
I suspect there's an element of teachers fearing the private sector where their performance in educating pupils might be measured.
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What kind of measure are you talking about. The private sector loves to quantify and control. Crude exam results are the easiest to quantify. So schools would cherry pick the good students and ignore or use methods to exclude students with speciall needs. Or exclude kids from very poor families who by and large struggle in school. And what about the teacher who genuinly cares about his/her student and whos day is spent on little thinks like sorting out students problems giving a kids self esteem a lift etc etc as well as teaching, these are unquantifyable and in a private sector education would be ignored.

And as for third level. goverment funding for this is decreasing and the private sector are expected to take up the slack. thats fine but whats the purpose of universities? if its to feed research for industry and the creation of more and more soo called "innovative" consumer products or to create graduates to work in engineering and science. social science cources are being incresingly sidelined. Thats fine if you an executive in MS or google but is is good for the education of the community. lets get rid of history philosophy religious studies etc if there no good for industry or commerce. Do you ever hear the term "knowledge economy" have you ever wondered what kind of knowledge this implies and if this knowledge is really going to get us anywhere in the future.
 
I'm not entirely convinced by the talk of a platonic ideal of education as practiced in Ireland
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your happier with you and your children being constantly refered to as consumers? And the vast majorrity of teachers i know really care thier students. Yes there are crap teachers out there. But do you really think privitisation would weed them out. I dont think so. But it would definatly stop a significant amount of people who go into teaching because they see it as a vocation from doing so and these are the kind of teachers that really make a difference.
 
When you have a sick stomach do you regard your doctors opinion as just another opinion on a par with the butchers and priests?[/QUOTE

So we simply trust our politicians with out questioning them. why have a referendum in the first place if thats the case.

Interesting article from Alan Ruddick in the sindo which i want to quote one particularly good point

The great and the good know what's best for us, and we should just trust them and move on. Well I can't. I do not trust them. I cannot stand being patronised, threatened, bullied and lied to, all at the same time, especially when the people doing the bullying have not bothered to read and understand the very document that they are trying to ram down my throat. That is reason enough to vote No, and it is why so many people have turned against the Lisbon Treaty in the past few weeks. We are being browbeaten, and we do not like it.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mad-im-fuming-at-the-lies-they-spin-1401935.html
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The Sunday Times proudly boasts today that it alone of all the papers supports No. It, somewhat prematurely, gloats at its victory "against all odds". Sorry, but no way does Rupert Murdoch have Ireland's best interests at heart.
 
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