TCD reserving places for UK & NI students

O

OhPinchy

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TCD reserving places for UK & NI students

Read this in the paper today:
"As 50,000 students prepare to make their CAO applications, it has emerged that Trinity College Dublin is to reserve a percentage of places on its courses for students from Britain and the North

...But Trinity has strongly rejected any claim of discrimination against Leaving Certificate students, saying the new rules could actually make it fairer for such students to gain admission to courses like law, medicine and English.

...Mr Brian Mooney, president of the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, said the CAO process should be a level playing field. But the Trinity decision gave a clear advantage to one group, he said.

This is in part because in popular subjects such as law, up to 50 per cent of students can come from an A-level background. TCD now estimates the figure for law could be reduced to around 25 per cent."

Have to say I don't agree with allowing a state-funded university to reserve such a large number of places for students from outside the state. 25% seems a very high figure to me. I don't suppose there's any chance that TCD can charge more for UK & NI students than Irish students?
 
Re: Discrimination

But here is the real killer. About 1% of Leaving Certers get the points for Medicine using the LC. A-levels over the years, because of socialist concerns about elitism, have become increasingly easy to the poiint where 10% get straight A's. In other words it is 10 times easier to get into Trinity medicine on A-Levels as it is on the LC.

The real reason is of course to attempt to preserve Trinity's Protestant ethos, a good thing I am sure but whether it should be State funded, good question.

BTW it was always so, just this year for some reason Trinity have had to come clean about their A-Level bias and indeed in doing so have genuinely lessened the discrimination.
 
Re: Discrimination

I heard the Trinty lady on RTÉ this am. The interviewer gave her a very hard time. Eventually I think she got across the point that madonna made ie that it was easier to get into Med with A levels than with the LC.

I still dont understand a few things.

If you live in the Republic and do A levels are the places still reserved for you?

If you do the French, German, Sweedish or any other EU equivalent exams are places also reserved for you?

ajapale
 
Trinity

I am not an ex Trinity student, and I personally don't see any great benefit from taking in UK students, but I think there needs to be a little bit of "live and let live" here. The reality, I rather suspect, is that the UK is a net contributor to the third level education sector in Ireland, as many Irish students go to the North and indeed to England, Wales and Scotland to study.

My other half is ex Trinity, and I must say that in an odd sort of way, I do enjoy the graduate magazine. Its publishers seem to inhabit a sort of parallel universe, where the country is being surreptitiously led by Trinity Old Boys (and girls). Who knows, maybe it is.
 
...

MOB- I'm all for live and let live alright but I just don't see why the taxpayers of this country should be paying to reserve places for UK students - if they compete on an even basis and get the place over an Irish student then fair enough, we're all part of the EU, but I see no reason as to why they should be given a particular advantage. And on top of that, I agree with the point that the Leaving Certificate stands up well against A-levels and that the 150 points per A level may be excessive.
 
Re: ...

What is the benefit to Irish taxpayers, or Irish society, if UK students are trained in Trinity? Assuming they don't intend to stay in Ireland after their graduation...do they pay the real cost of their course? Do they pay-back the cost upon getting employment?
For that matter...do Irish University Students pay for their training? Do they pay it back after they get jobs?

If not - why not?
 
Re: ...

One of the (small) downsides of being in the EU Tharggy.

We are obliged to offer the same treatment to non-Irish EU students that we offer to Irish students. That's just the way it is.

Same reason Scottish universities are being flooded with English students.

Irish students don't pay back the cost of their tuition directly. However, studies have shown that you are likely to earn significantly more over the course of your life if you have a degree compared to someone who doesn't have a degree.

IMHO Irish students more than pay back their degrees in the increased taxes they'll pay, given that unemployment among university graduates is tiny - thus they're paying increased taxes while not drawing social welfare. In today's knowledge based economy its in all our interest that we have as many highly trained graduates as possible.
 
Re: ...

Fair enough...so to keep out the UK students the answer would seem to be to charge a hefty fee for university training to Irish students too.

Your suggestion that graduates do pay back their free education to society in the skills they offer here in Ireland only stands up if they actually stay in Ireland, which of course they are not mandated to do, and which of course many of them choose NOT to do.

Also, if university graduates are entitled to free 3rd level education, why not other 'vocational' equivalents? By your logic they too should receive exactly the same benefits.
 
Trinity Capping Places

I haven't looked at this in detail, but as I understand it the intent of this change is to CAP the number of
UK students on each Trinity course. Although it may be implemented as a quota of reserved places, the actual outcome will be to reduce UK student numbers.

The problem is the weighting of A Levels against the LC which many believe to be unfairly weighted in favour of UK students. In my day, 3 As at A levels got you 570 points, hence medicine often finishing around that number. Now they've re-weighted it so that 4 As at A level get you 600 points (the maximum.).

P.S. I'm a Trinity alumnus and I was born in the UK, so I may be slightly biased.
 
Re: ...

Also, if university graduates are entitled to free 3rd level education, why not other 'vocational' equivalents?
Click to expand...

Could you give some examples of what you mean?
 
Re: ...

The purpose of universities could probably be summed up as follows: to educate students, create knowledge, and to provide service to the community.
But why should society value the service (for example) of Lawyers or Accountants - to the extent that the tax payer is expected to fund their training and education - while ignoring other equally or more necessary professions?

The Aviation Sector generates revenues of billions of dollars per year. Air Transport is one of the foundation stones of the world economy, and is vital to the National interests of every country. And yet the key personnel necessary to operate this vital sector are left to fund their own training. I'm referring to pilots of course!

Why should a young person who wishes to forge his/her career as a commercial pilot be left to shoulder the heavy burden of financing their own training, which in this highly regulated industry will now cost upward of 75,000 euro? Not only is there no recognised degree course for them in Ireland, but there isn't even a penny of tax relief offerred to them on the money they must invest.

Its grossly unfair to them, and I'm sure there are other good examples of this kind of inequity.
 
Re: ...

Don't most pilots have a degree anyway?
Certainly someone who wants to be a pilot could study aeronautical engineering.


Most people have to invest in training after they finish third level anyay..
 
Re: ...

Many pilots have 'previous lives' or careers in other sectors where they have achieved degrees.
There are two ex-heart transplant surgeons flying for Aer Lingus at the moment, among other professions.

However a degree is not a pre-requisite of the job in this country, or indeed throughout most of europe. What is required is the mental ability to pass the technical exams and the motor skills to pass the flight tests. And 75,000 euros.

In other european countries (notably the UK) there are tax breaks, and even grants, for vocational training.
In the US there are recognised 4 year degree courses in aviation studies which also incorporate ATPL qualification (Airline Transport Pilots Licence).

Here there is nothing. Why not?

In the past, some airlines would sponsor student pilots.
In the changed environment of the airline industry today - no company runs sponsorship programs any more.

An aeronautical engineering degree is of no use to a pilot candidate in practical terms because it does not in any way address the flight training requirements for an ATPL.

The answer is either grants or tax breaks for vocational training of this sort, or else (in this example) a state funded university degree course incorporating the necessary flight training for the ATPL.
 
Mrs purple is a trinity Medicine graduate and from my memory of her class the biggest proportion of non Irish students were from the far east, not GB. I have no problem with that but I think that the idea that it is GB students pushing up the points for Irish student is only part of the story.
I agree with Tharggys point and I think that the fact that university education is still the reserve, to a large degree, of the upper middle classes ( be they from Ireland of elsewhere) is more of an issue that quotes for students from GB.
That being said given that the present system will not be changed, the 25% quota is probably a good idea.
 
Purple I happen to know a fair bit about the Trinity Medical School Asian connection. The vast majority of the Asian Medical students in Trinity are Malaysian and their government gives enormous donations and bursaries to the university to guarentee places for their people. In effect the Malaysians therefore pay their way (at least as far as the Irish taxpayer is concerned). The same apparently doesn't apply to Irish or UK students.

By the way - FSW was the answer to your question. ;)
 
The vast majority of the Asian Medical students in Trinity are Malaysian and their government gives enormous donations and bursaries to the university to guarentee places for their people
Click to expand...
Yea I know, and then they have to spend 5 years in the army to pay off the debt.
FSW ?
 
Dunno about the army thing...I'll check. Sounds fair enough to me...repaying the state for your education, but I don't think they require that off the Malaysians. They actually have pretty high medical standards in their hospitals down there, they don't have massive queues at A&E because there are lots of well equipped independant local clinics to provide primary care and basic GP services. The clinics are very cheap too!

My solution to Irelands Health problems:

1. Encourage similiar local clinics, replacing our GP system.
2. Tax reliefs to encourage the setting up of homes for the aged which incorporate a higher level of medical care than is currently provided (to clear beds in hospitals of elderly people too sick to go home, but not sick enough to need hospitalisation).
3. More Doctors and Nurses, and the requirement for such graduates to perform a number of years service in Ireland.

FSW = Friction Stir Welding.
 
FSW = Friction Stir Welding.
Click to expand...
Yes but how do they get a complex molecule like aluminium to loosen it's molecular bonds without changing it's structure?;)
 
They looked it up in Google?

By the way, I checked out the Military service thing.
Malaysia introduced National Service only in 2004, and only for 3 months per citizen. It applies whether you go to university or not! And 3 months...its more like an "outward bound" course apparently.

As I understand it, if you get a State sponsored degree you are required to work in State hospitals for a number of years. Seems only right. Most Malaysians are more than happy to live and work in Malaysia...rather than emigrate, as seems to be the ambition of very many Irish medical students.
 
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