Discussions are not enough. You need to put everything in writing as per my previous post and send it to them by registered mail. If its in writing it can be produced in Court (if necessary) as evidence of your approach and willingness to reach an amicable solution. If not in writing its your word against theirs.
taken to court over fees
- Thread starter rion
- Start date
If every member of the management company were to witholold fees, where do people expect the funds to come from in order to carry out the works, prior to the same people deciding they are satisfied works have been carried out and decide to start paying again.
It's a vicious circle. Why should fee paying members support the company until you are happy that it is performing?
Witholding fees is never the answer or incentive for MCs to improve. It can only cause detrement to the MC.
If you have a badly performing MA, the only action to take is to get involved and put pressure on the directors of the MC to take control.
It's a vicious circle. Why should fee paying members support the company until you are happy that it is performing?
Witholding fees is never the answer or incentive for MCs to improve. It can only cause detrement to the MC.
If you have a badly performing MA, the only action to take is to get involved and put pressure on the directors of the MC to take control.
Were there specific terms in your purchase contract that they did not fulfill? Usually the details of the maintenance work are part of the annual budget cycle. Have you received professional advice that has determined that you can prove a breach of contract?
You are not paying for a service when you pay your management fees. You are contributing to a budget that is then apportioned to cover insurance, cleaning, management agent, admin, sinking fund etc. If maintenance work was not done then money was not spent on it. Money was spent on something and even if some was wasted, everyone shares the cost of that waste. People can not select to opt out until some other owner decides to volunteer their time to resolve the issues.
Sorry jewex, you are correct... my mistake in typing. I have discussed these details with the new agents and they are still saying they want all the arrears...so it looks like I may just have to take my chances in court.does anyone know if there is and ombudsman for management agents or a commitee as such as I would like to go in as prepared as possible.
You know that the managing company is made up of all the owners? The " agents" are acting for the management company in trying to recover the arrears. Did you ever check the accounts to see what the money had been spent on? Did you ever go to an AGM to question the directors of the management company.
The best you can hope for is an order to pay the arrears in installments.
jdwex: I did go to all the AGM's, unfortunetly the turn out was always very bad as most people have their apartments rented out. The last one there was a total of 2 people there including myself. In reviewing their acconts every year I queried the costs window cleaning ( never done) cleaning expenses ( only done 2-3 months of the year) their own fee ( increased every year even though we are in a recession most costs are drpping to be more competitive) admin fee's and postal charges even though I only get 1 letter a year ( the notice of AGM and accounts print out) I did query these but its hard to fight when their are 5 people sitting on a panel and i'm sitting alone querying.
44Brendan- I have put it in writing to them but infortunelty as they have no record of any of my complaints or letters etc they still want to pursue the arrears.
Garbow- I assure you I am the type of person who has a tv license and would never ignore a bill due. I did pay them for two years while complaining about their sevices, the lack of cleaning, the lack of basic things such as maintaining the fire doors etc. But at what point can we make a stand? at what point do I have the right to not waste my money. At one point I had to pay a private electrician to come in to replace a bulb on the landing which i had been requesting to have replaced for months...the invoice was never reimbursed. I do understand that other people would be paying but if they are not turning up to the AGM's to even query their bill or complain about lack of services...then where do i stand??
On tour- as far as I am aware ( and this is probably where my whole argument will fall apart) I was paying my fees to have my building kept clean, the bins emptied, electricity, common area maintenace etc etc. However not all was being done. This is why after several complaints etc I noted to them that I would pay for the services I was recieving and not the ones which just seemed to be empty promises. I had spent 2 years writing to them and at that point I just couldnt take it anymore.
Although I feel I have an answer to all queries I also feel less and less assured of my standing now..... I just cant bring myself to face the fact that I could walk away paying them when they werent honest and they didnt fulfil their responsibilites no matter how much I begged them...it makes me sad.
44Brendan- I have put it in writing to them but infortunelty as they have no record of any of my complaints or letters etc they still want to pursue the arrears.
Garbow- I assure you I am the type of person who has a tv license and would never ignore a bill due. I did pay them for two years while complaining about their sevices, the lack of cleaning, the lack of basic things such as maintaining the fire doors etc. But at what point can we make a stand? at what point do I have the right to not waste my money. At one point I had to pay a private electrician to come in to replace a bulb on the landing which i had been requesting to have replaced for months...the invoice was never reimbursed. I do understand that other people would be paying but if they are not turning up to the AGM's to even query their bill or complain about lack of services...then where do i stand??
On tour- as far as I am aware ( and this is probably where my whole argument will fall apart) I was paying my fees to have my building kept clean, the bins emptied, electricity, common area maintenace etc etc. However not all was being done. This is why after several complaints etc I noted to them that I would pay for the services I was recieving and not the ones which just seemed to be empty promises. I had spent 2 years writing to them and at that point I just couldnt take it anymore.
Although I feel I have an answer to all queries I also feel less and less assured of my standing now..... I just cant bring myself to face the fact that I could walk away paying them when they werent honest and they didnt fulfil their responsibilites no matter how much I begged them...it makes me sad.
jdwex: I did go to all the AGM's, unfortunetly the turn out was always very bad as most people have their apartments rented out. The last one there was a total of 2 people there including myself. In reviewing their acconts every year I queried the costs window cleaning ( never done) cleaning expenses ( only done 2-3 months of the year) their own fee ( increased every year even though we are in a recession most costs are drpping to be more competitive) admin fee's and postal charges even though I only get 1 letter a year ( the notice of AGM and accounts print out) I did query these but its hard to fight when their are 5 people sitting on a panel and i'm sitting alone querying.
Who are the five people at the top people? Are they all owners?
You should ask whether the management company are in compliance with
[broken link removed]
, but it won't help you in this case
Thanks for the advice jdwex. Well I've an appointment with a solicitor tomorrow morning to explain my case and see if Im going to get cruxified or not so I shall keep you posted. I'll also post any advice he gives me on dealing with MC and maybe it will help someone else going forward. fingers and toes crossed.
You said you attended AGMS, where approval of the budget is a mandatory agenda item. So you approved the budget and then refused to pay your contracted share?
It can be frustrating to see developments being badly mismanaged...the only way to deal with it is to put yourself forward as a director of the MC, make the development a better place and protect your investment. You can't be a director if you are not a full member of the MC which you won't be with arrears on your account.
It can be frustrating to see developments being badly mismanaged...the only way to deal with it is to put yourself forward as a director of the MC, make the development a better place and protect your investment. You can't be a director if you are not a full member of the MC which you won't be with arrears on your account.
The budget needed to be approved?? This is strange as I dont remember this ever happening. They would go through the accounts which we had been sent before hand with notice of the AGM and discuss ( pass off) any queries reaised and then go on to notices such as oh we are fixing such and such or oh we are looking into a new bin contractor etc. but that would be it. the attendees could then raise any issues we had but I never remember being asked for any approval??
This is only a new requirement since March 2011 - it wasn't needed before.
Well I was at my solicitor this morning and he said that its a civil matter. that at the end of the day its the judges discretion. That there are hundreds of these cases coming up every week in courts. He said that i signed a contract with them and it does merely fall down to who breached contract first. the best out come I can hope for is to be billed for the services which I did receive and have to pay for them ( which I have always been happy to do and did keep saying this to them in my letters that I would pay for bins, esb and insurance) if I can prove that they did not provide the other things which they were contracted to do those fees will either be dismissed or else it will be that they will have a period of time to complete and maintain them and then I will have to make an agreement to settle those bill... 9 again which I will do and would be happy to do as who wouldnt be happy to pay for a service that they are in fact recieving) ..well we'll see how it goes in court and I shall keep you all posted but thanks for all your help.
I would dream of arguing with a solicitor but if you check your lease agreement, you'll probably find very little detail about what your management company *must* do other than insure the common areas. Everything else is a nice to have but not contractually binding.
Also, the solicitors for the management company should, and probably will, point out that services must be paid for in advance. If you didn't pay for them, they can't possibly be expected to provide them.
As per my initial advice and despite all the hyperbole this is a fairly simple issue of contract law. If you sign a contract for a specific service or services you are obliged to pay the agreed annual fee. However you are also entitled to an adequate level of service in return for that fee. In this case you have indicated that you are not satisfied with the level of service received and are prepared to offer a reduced fee commiserate with the reduced level of service. If the other pary disputes this then the issue is whether you were provided with an acceptable service in accordance with the terms of the contract. A judge will base his decision on the merits of the case and based on the information as stated by you in your posts I think you have a good chance of a successful outcome.
Lilybear, It reads like you were given stock answers that have very little insight in to the complexities if living in 'managed' developments. I am amazed to hear that there are hundreds of cases coming up in the courts between management companies and their members every week, I must try to dig around for some statistics.
Did the solicitor review your contract? Did the solicitor determine specific non-performance clause on the side of the management company?
I would happily be ready to be corrected if legally members of management companies can take an 'a la carte' approach to the services. The contracts that are assigned specify a share of a budget. Even if they blow the budget on a gold hand rail in one of the other blocks - you are still liable for your share.
It would appear that you are taking a professional approach to this but I fear that you are being let down by the people that were in charge of providing a service and possibly by those giving you advise now.
If you go to court you may be liable for legal fees, you may be liable for interest on overdue fees etc etc. Did you legal advice indicate what the potential exposure is to you of going to court?
One thing to consider may be to agree to pay the outstanding charges on a staggered basis if they waive any interest / penalties / legal costs.
Did the solicitor review your contract? Did the solicitor determine specific non-performance clause on the side of the management company?
I would happily be ready to be corrected if legally members of management companies can take an 'a la carte' approach to the services. The contracts that are assigned specify a share of a budget. Even if they blow the budget on a gold hand rail in one of the other blocks - you are still liable for your share.
It would appear that you are taking a professional approach to this but I fear that you are being let down by the people that were in charge of providing a service and possibly by those giving you advise now.
If you go to court you may be liable for legal fees, you may be liable for interest on overdue fees etc etc. Did you legal advice indicate what the potential exposure is to you of going to court?
One thing to consider may be to agree to pay the outstanding charges on a staggered basis if they waive any interest / penalties / legal costs.
Just a thought, if an owner was given a reduced fee because the judge decreed all the contracted services were not supplied, should it not be open to the management company to apply a credit of the same amount to all the other owners who did not receive the services paid for (citing Management Co. Vs Owner).
Of course it would really be a zero sum game
Of course it would really be a zero sum game
thefridge05
Registered User
- Messages
- 9
God i love hearing all these stories, Management companies are a joke. I live in an apartment but its not an apartment block and it has its own front door(its only a 2 story,1 below and mine)There are houses all around the apartments and what gets me is the apartment owners have to pay for window/gutter cleaning once a year, we have to pay for the grass to be cut and little small shrubbery looked after, which is a mess.
Why should I pay to have that done when I can clean my own gutters and windows and the grass area is for all the houses too. I have paid 1000 this week as I was in major arrears and have agreed 20 per week. I am currently unemployed and its gonna be hard.
They have added 570 in additional fees as I was in arrears which i am fighting, as they said they sent me a letter I never recieved (it went to my parents house). They are saying i am obligated to tell them if my address changes, but as far as I am concerned they won't be getting it.
I am sorry I didn't go to court.
Why should I pay to have that done when I can clean my own gutters and windows and the grass area is for all the houses too. I have paid 1000 this week as I was in major arrears and have agreed 20 per week. I am currently unemployed and its gonna be hard.
They have added 570 in additional fees as I was in arrears which i am fighting, as they said they sent me a letter I never recieved (it went to my parents house). They are saying i am obligated to tell them if my address changes, but as far as I am concerned they won't be getting it.
I am sorry I didn't go to court.
44Brendan- Gosh i hope yuor right.. Im getting myself in a right state now that the date is approaching..... next tuesday... I've never been inside a court room in my life so I am finding this really daunting.
Ontour- I do agree with you and feel you are right about being let down by the MC. The solicitor seemed very nice and tried to break everything down for me in simple terms. he did say that as also being charged their court fees aswell was a matter for the judge. The judge could wave them or tell me I have to pay them aswell. But either way its not as if they could demand the money from me within a week. That an agreement would have to be made if this does not rule in my favour. He did say that as Im 7 month pregnant and going on unpaid maternity leave and still paying the new management agents 170+ per month at present ( as noted above they are actually doing a good job, its the old agents I had issue with) that it would probably be reviewed again in a year maybe or when I return to work. He did say though that what is going in my favour is the fact that I in serveral letter agreed to pay them for the services that I was in fact being provided. that I requested bank details several times to do this. But sure......... gosh knows hows this will turn out on the day.
Jdwex- jeez Im not too sure at all how that would work. I assume maybe no... Im learning at the minute that whatever way the most money can be made is the way tats usually applied.
Thefridge05- I feel for you I really do. its hard but I at the same time envy you that you are being billed for things you are getting. If I was to send you a copy of my last set of accounts and you were to come and visit me you would pee yourself laughing at me and tell me to get a tattoo of "muppet" written on my forehead. I live in a small block of 9 apartments 3 on each floor. there is a block a couple of meters behind my building. On their second floor through 2 sets of locked doors there is a small concrete common area with 2 benchs and 3 coniferous tress. This common area has actually been locked for 3 years due to a pigeon poop and health issue. Even if it wasnt locked off to the public I have no access to that building or to the locked doors. On my accounts I still get billed € 5965 a year for maintance to common area garden. They call the concrete jungle with 3 christmas trees a garden and bill me nearly € 6 a year to keep the door locked?????
its like easy money to them.
I'll let ye know how I get on on Tuesday and hopefully I'll have good news. i would like to point out though that I do not advise anyone for any reason not to pay their fee's . It is true that the MC cannot continue unless the fee's are paid. I feel my case is different and isolated as I didnt just stop paying i spent 2 years paying and then 3 years begging for work to be done and at each step of the way agreed to pay if even 1 small thing was accomplished by them. And with our new agents with them carrying out the work ( in fairness trying to catch up) I have set up and paid a DD to them with no issue.
Ontour- I do agree with you and feel you are right about being let down by the MC. The solicitor seemed very nice and tried to break everything down for me in simple terms. he did say that as also being charged their court fees aswell was a matter for the judge. The judge could wave them or tell me I have to pay them aswell. But either way its not as if they could demand the money from me within a week. That an agreement would have to be made if this does not rule in my favour. He did say that as Im 7 month pregnant and going on unpaid maternity leave and still paying the new management agents 170+ per month at present ( as noted above they are actually doing a good job, its the old agents I had issue with) that it would probably be reviewed again in a year maybe or when I return to work. He did say though that what is going in my favour is the fact that I in serveral letter agreed to pay them for the services that I was in fact being provided. that I requested bank details several times to do this. But sure......... gosh knows hows this will turn out on the day.
Jdwex- jeez Im not too sure at all how that would work. I assume maybe no... Im learning at the minute that whatever way the most money can be made is the way tats usually applied.
Thefridge05- I feel for you I really do. its hard but I at the same time envy you that you are being billed for things you are getting. If I was to send you a copy of my last set of accounts and you were to come and visit me you would pee yourself laughing at me and tell me to get a tattoo of "muppet" written on my forehead. I live in a small block of 9 apartments 3 on each floor. there is a block a couple of meters behind my building. On their second floor through 2 sets of locked doors there is a small concrete common area with 2 benchs and 3 coniferous tress. This common area has actually been locked for 3 years due to a pigeon poop and health issue. Even if it wasnt locked off to the public I have no access to that building or to the locked doors. On my accounts I still get billed € 5965 a year for maintance to common area garden. They call the concrete jungle with 3 christmas trees a garden and bill me nearly € 6 a year to keep the door locked?????
its like easy money to them.
I'll let ye know how I get on on Tuesday and hopefully I'll have good news. i would like to point out though that I do not advise anyone for any reason not to pay their fee's . It is true that the MC cannot continue unless the fee's are paid. I feel my case is different and isolated as I didnt just stop paying i spent 2 years paying and then 3 years begging for work to be done and at each step of the way agreed to pay if even 1 small thing was accomplished by them. And with our new agents with them carrying out the work ( in fairness trying to catch up) I have set up and paid a DD to them with no issue.