student nurses... are you kidding me?

[moondance]

Based on the fact that Ireland is almost unique in making any sort of payments in this area to student nurses and we are broke.

I'd just like to point out to the above poster that nurses and midwives training in the UK get their college fees paid by the NHS AND get a bursary of £508 per month for the full 3 years of their degree including holidays.

 

[Complainer]

Over the years I have met Doctors who, to get experience in a field, and to gain contacts in a field worked for free...

These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.

 

[pinkyBear]

These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.

Not necessarily - from my experience alot of those doctors funded themselves via credit cards - no parent or spouse to support them! Most of the interns I meet (I too was an intern) have second jobs that they do during the weekend (I too worked a week end job nursing to sustain me). Also in programming, you have the concept of opensource contributors - these are programmers who contribute for free to open source projects that big organisations such as facebook would use. They do this to get experience and their name "out there" - rather than just having on their CV, I was unemployed for 2 years. They can name a project they contributed to...

P..

 

[Newbie!]

As far as I know, and I may be wrong.........Nurse training became a Level 8 degree a number of years ago and students are now educated within the NUI's. Like student doctors, they complete pre-clinical studies within a university and then they do clinical rotations out in the Universties' affiliated hospitals.

Who benefits?.... the student, the University, the HEA, the hospitals....

Again, I may be wrong so please feel free to correct me...

 

[Sunny]

I'd just like to point out to the above poster that nurses and midwives training in the UK get their college fees paid by the NHS AND get a bursary of £508 per month for the full 3 years of their degree including holidays.

Students here get their fees paid and not all student nurses get a bursary.

 

[Newbie!]

These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.

I thought that all medical internships were allocated via a national competition and all positions are paid internships. I didnt think you could choose an internship place and not get paid?

 

[pinkyBear]

Who benefits?.... the student, the University, the HEA, the hospitals....

newbie, you ask a very interesting question! I trained as a nurse the "old way" I have a nursing certificate. From day 1 we were on the wards caring and working with people. During my time as a student, my work was assessed in every ward I worked on. It was in my interest to do the best I could.

When the degrees came in, there were less staff on the wards, and more care attendants, and the care attendant took over the role of a student nurse. Now I am not berating a care attendant's role, as there are some incredible staff.. But the reality is on the wards, the care attendant may/not have the full insight into patient care in comparison to a 3rd year student nurse.

My nursing friends often find, that with the newly qualified staff, very often the leave nursing after the degree, as they are collage educated and less exposure to ward work means they can often be disappointed with the work they have to do when qualified...!

I am not dissing education at all, I think education is really important...

 

[Newbie!]

newbie, you ask a very interesting question! I trained as a nurse the "old way" I have a nursing certificate. From day 1 we were on the wards caring and working with people. During my time as a student, my work was assessed in every ward I worked on. It was in my interest to do the best I could.

When the degrees came in, there were less staff on the wards, and more care attendants, and the care attendant took over the role of a student nurse. No I am not berating a care attendant's role, as there are some incredible staff.. But the reality is on the wards, the care attendant may/not have the full insight into patient care in comparison to a 3rd year student nurse.

My nursing friends often find, that with the newly qualified staff, very often the leave nursing after the degree, as they are collage educated and less exposure to ward work means they can often be disappointed with the work they have to do when qualified...!

I am not dissing education at all, I think education is really important...

Good point. On the flip side, could it be true that weaker students will never make it as far as clinical studies as they are easily identified in the earlier stages of the programme?

 

[Complainer]

Not necessarily - from my experience alot of those doctors funded themselves via credit cards - no parent or spouse to support them! .

Sorry if this is a shock to you, but not everyone has (or can get) credit cards and credit limits. That's a bit of a 'Let them eat cake' response.

 

[pinkyBear]

That's a bit of a 'Let them eat cake' response.

Given that I did it myself, without a credit card, and nothing only a second job to feed me! I'd hardly say its a "let them eat cake response".

The reality is many student nurses actually work agency themselves, as relief care attendants...
P..

 

[lou2]

It's important to note that students nurses do clinical placements from first year. These are obviously unpaid as these placements are part of their training. They don't just arrive on a ward for the first time for their rostered placement. Those on internship are doing the job of a newly qualified nurse. A qualified nurse is taken off the ward and replaced by a nurse on internship. They are a member of staff. They are a member of staff. They do shift work, night duty etc. Why then should they not get paid? They are not asking to be paid for their clinical placements when they are not part of the staffing quota, just for their internship when they are working as a nurse as part of the team. Seems fair enough to me.

 

[annet]

this makes me so mad

Oh I just had to put my two-pence worth into this.

What's most insightful is that the IMNO agreed to unqualified student nurses being used to replace and do the work of qualified staff nurses on wards! Maybe, the students should have a bigger gripe with the union...me thinks!

Last year, the INMO also proposed that newly qualified nurses should do some sort of a two year internship after qualification to stem the vast numbers who end up being jobless or those who are having to emmigrate. And for this two year internship, these newly qualified nurses under INMO proposals would receive a much lower rate of salary than is currently being paid to other staff nurses for the same work. I wonder would any of the students who are currently protesting have any difficulties working for lesser amounts of money as another staff nurse, given they'd also be qualified, and doing the same work with the same level of responsibility. This is the sort of crap that their own union comes out with.

I dont know much about how this degree course operates in Ireland, but I also presume the student nurses are required to work a nine month placement as part of their course requirements. I would also presume, that they also have some learning outcomes that must also be achieved in order to pass that last clinical placement. So in other words, if they dont do this placement....or they dont pass that placement....they dont get their degree....and if they dont get their degree....they are ineligible to register with An Bord Altranais as a fully qualified staff nurse. Internships only apply if and when you actually get your qualification....that's the way it works in medicine!

The thing is no other student in the medical or paramedical profession receives 80% of their salary for a placement that is a mandatory component of the course and for qualification.

Of course, if these students want to fully reimburse the €90,000 that it costs the taxpayer to put them through their four year degree programme, they'd be quite welcome to their 80% of a staff nurse salary for their nine month placement, in return for reimbursing us the cost of their training.

 

[cork]

Nurses campaigned for academic qualifications.

They now moan not getting paid during internship periods.

They want their bread buttered on both sides.


About reimbursing the €90,000?

Funding like this does not even warrant mention.

 

[Leper]

We are largely getting a one sided argument here. Nursing used to be a 3 year course and it was extended out to 4 years just for the sake of (a) Filling the respective university/hospital course and (b) To replace nursing staff on holidays/career breaks/flexitime-hours/reduced hours etc.

We are being told that it takes €90,000 to train a nurse plus what it costs mom and dad to keep the student in 'college.'

Student Nurses are paid €12.36 per hour gross Basic Wages during their placement. They must work the hours appropriated to them and in the hospital appointed. Please note the hospital can be anywhere within the university greater area e.g a nursing student in Limerick can be ordered to work in say Nenagh hospital. The nurse must fund the travel, accommodation etc and be expected to work split attendances etc.

When a nurse qualifies from university he/she must emigrate to find work. I understand the UK is crying out for our highly trained nurses.

Our Training Hospitals do not employ nurses that they trained. I challenge anybody on here to supply truthful info about Training Hospitals that employed its own qualified nurses. I can say this because I know the truth.

Nurses and Student Nurses must report for duty in the ward at least 20 minutes before commencement time to ensure an easy handover. Also, they must remain in the ward 20 mins extra and unpaid on finishing the day/night to hand over to the next nurses.

This is fairly cheap labour for the responsibility even student nurses have. I should point out that a Student Nurse even on his/her first day in the ward will make more responsible decisions than any other profession.

Please people, know what you are talking about

 

[annet]

I am a Nurse

We are largely getting a one sided argument here. Nursing used to be a 3 year course and it was extended out to 4 years just for the sake of (a) Filling the respective university/hospital course and (b) To replace nursing staff on holidays/career breaks/flexitime-hours/reduced hours etc.

We are being told that it takes €90,000 to train a nurse plus what it costs mom and dad to keep the student in 'college.'

Student Nurses are paid €12.36 per hour gross Basic Wages during their placement. They must work the hours appropriated to them and in the hospital appointed. Please note the hospital can be anywhere within the university greater area e.g a nursing student in Limerick can be ordered to work in say Nenagh hospital. The nurse must fund the travel, accommodation etc and be expected to work split attendances etc.

When a nurse qualifies from university he/she must emigrate to find work. I understand the UK is crying out for our highly trained nurses.

Our Training Hospitals do not employ nurses that they trained. I challenge anybody on here to supply truthful info about Training Hospitals that employed its own qualified nurses. I can say this because I know the truth.

Nurses and Student Nurses must report for duty in the ward at least 20 minutes before commencement time to ensure an easy handover. Also, they must remain in the ward 20 mins extra and unpaid on finishing the day/night to hand over to the next nurses.

This is fairly cheap labour for the responsibility even student nurses have. I should point out that a Student Nurse even on his/her first day in the ward will make more responsible decisions than any other profession.

Please people, know what you are talking about

I am a Nurse. The €90,000 figure is what it costs us the taxpayer....not mom and dad! And remember, nurses do actually get a qualification that is transferrable to most parts of this world! And if people cant afford the expense of going to college to do nursing....well dont go!

I too came out with a university based qualification....and I also done unpaid placements all over the place throughout all my years in uni. I had to travel between sites, and no transport was laid on either. We also worked f/t hours throughout my years at college, and that was in addition to attending college, doing essay's, exams etc. We worked w/e's, night-shifts, bank holiday's, christmas, easter and the new year and we didnt get paid one £ in a salary for any of it. In our final unit, we also done f/t hours on clinical placement for months prior to our graduation.

Our main means of financial support throughout our training was a minimal bursary with focus on the minimal, and many of us did manage to survive on it, and we done this, through not living beyond their means, not taking out mortgages as students, and by budgeting accordingly. We also had to pay for accomodation, and for travel between different sites across the health district. Most of us also done agency on our day's off as HCA's. And tbh, agency did become virtually impossible towards the end of our training with the demands of placements....and many of us had no other option but to give it up....and focus on our training and final exams.

Yes I wont lie, it was difficult juggling placements, college and agency....but we fully recognised that we were getting a qualification out of it....

And after my year qualified, only one or two out of a intake of 120 managed to get work as a staff nurse in any hospital within our health district.

But, I suppose it comes down to your own views and attitudes, and whether you believe that having put you through uni, you then have some automatic right to expect a job to be there for you in the hospital where you trained.

Furthermore, this is being phased in over a couple of years. So many of these student nurses who are currently protesting wont actually be affected by any of this. Those who will be affected are those who just put in their CAO application....and when they put it in they knew full well that in all likelihood that payment wont be there for their fourth year of placement.

This really riles me up.

 

[thedaras]

It is absolutely untrue to say this is largely a one sided argument,as far as I can see there are at least 20 posts which are for them being paid or neutral or just giving or looking for information,just because you dont like the rest of the posts does not make it one sided.Next thing it will be said its PS bashing.
Why are we training so many at a cost of 90k if as you say, they must emigrate to find work? waste of our tax payers money and the student numbers must be drastically reduced if this is the case.
My god imagine complaining about having to report for duty 20 mins before commencement time,for a change over !Next thing you know we will be told it takes them an hour to get the bus in and they are not happy about it.
You say they make more responsible decisions than any other profession>where did you get from??
Are you telling us that a student nurse makes more responsible decisions than doctors etc,that they are allowed make these decisions on the first day on a ward,that they are not fully qualified to do so?
Do they work this time with no supervision? I certainly hope not!
As far as I recall Nurses themselves wanted the 12 hour shifts which they complain about so much now!

 

[Leper]

thedaras, most of your argument is pretty puerile. Nearly every nurse I know works an extra 40 minutes per day extra without being compensated. Nobody is complaining about the time it takes to get a bus, come on, be fair, it is not too difficult even here. What if the nurse arrived 20 minutes after the due time each day and left 20 minutes before the due end time. Then we would have a different argument from you.

Nursing through its nature is pretty uncompromising and the profession has no place for the underskilled. Let's compare like with like. Nurses are on the wards from the moment they begin work. Doctors (or should I say NCHDs - Non-Conhsultant Hospital Doctors) work hard also, I wont take that from them. The NCHDs dont supervise nurses. Ask most consultants and even the NCHDs and you will see that it is NCHDs receive instruction from the nurses (except for the Consultant's Registrar, of course). Let's not devalue the work of student nurses.

Don't forget, we are talking about student nurses here. They are being trained and they work hard and for €12.36 per hour.

I never said anything about Public Service V Private Sector either.

Let's get to your other point i.e the cost to train a nurse (€90,000+). Clearly, it is not good value for money and because we are sending the vast majority of our student nurses abroad, this is a bad investment and no return is obtained. Therefore, let's stop training nurses now. But, the universities want to train nurses and whether we need them or not they will continue to train nurses for no jobs in Ireland.

 

[micmclo]

Was there even a need to make nursing a degree subject with graduate salaries?
What was so wrong with the old way when nursing was treated like a vocation and they trained like an apprentice.

 

[lou2]

Yes there was a need to make nursing a degree subject. The nature of healthcare has changed rapidly over the past 2 decades. Advances in treatment modalities, an increase in specialites etc. Nurses are the core healthcare profession. They are the only healthcare professional with the patient 24/7. The profession of nursing had to advance to meet the needs of those whom they care for. I am very familiar with both the traditional system of training and the 'new' system of training. A graduate nursing profession is required to meet healthcare needs in modern society.

With regard to the original argument re students nurses pay...other posters have talked about other students on internships not being paid...to the best of my knowledge none of these are actually replacing a staff member in full.

 

[orka]

Over the years I have met Doctors who, to get experience in a field, and to gain contacts in a field worked for free...

These kinds of situations restrict access to those who can afford to work for free, i.e. those who have a nice rich mammy/daddy/wife/hubby who will support them through the internship. This again furthers economic inequality - so only those who can fund the internship will get the chance at the consultancy post.

Doctors train/get experience/gain contacts for many years post-initial college education so this is not necessarily an internship situation - and I think is unlikely to be. It's much more likely to be to gain experience with a particular specialist in a field that the new(ish) doctor is specialising in him/herself. There's not so much difference between one internship (which for doctors is only the first year post-college) and the next that would make it worth being unpaid. Anyhoo, doctors typically work on 6-24 month contracts until they become consultants so could easily work (and be very well paid) for 12 months (or 5 years) and then work with a reknowed specialist for 6 months for free (if that's what the deal was) and not have to tap mummy and daddy for living expenses at the age of 30...