Should I note the purchase of my PPR on my Form 11?

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Hi

Looking for some input please regarding CGT applicable sections on Form 11

Last year, I sold my old PPR and bought my current PPR

As regards the sale of my old PPR, am I right in saying that in order to claim PPR relief, I'll need to detail the relevant purchase, sale amounts etc. (within Panel L "Capital Gains" I think)?

Then, in Panel M "Chargeable Assets acquired", do I need provide details of my current PPR that I bought?

Any help much appreciated
 
Summary of the thread



1) There is no CGT liability on a Principal Private Residence
2) 99% of people do not record the purchase and sale of their PPR
3) Revenue would not take any action for not recording the purchase.
4) However, it's possible that Revenue may pick up the sale or purchase from other data, and if it's not obviously your PPR, they might ask you a question.
5) There is no disadvantage in recording it
 
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Thanks Brendan

Not renting out. Used solely as PPR

When I was reading through CGT FAQs on revenue.ie, I came across the following:

"Irrespective of whether you have submitted a payment, or whether the gain is relieved from tax or a loss arises on the disposal, you must submit a tax return to Revenue in respect of any disposals. Generally the tax return is due by 31st October in the year following the calendar year in which the disposal was made.....If you are required to submit a tax return each year you should include details relating to CGT in the appropriate portion of the return"

Regarding sale, Panel L, 805 (a) on Form 11, states "Disposal of Principal Private Residence: enter amount of consideration". So based on above in italics, and then this line in Form 11, I was planning to enter sale consideration details and then fill in 805(a) so as to ensure PPR is claimed.

As regards the subsequent purchase of new PPR then, the Form 11 help-sheet is pretty vague in terms of in terms of what to include in Panel M "Chargeable Assets acquired in 2016".

"Enter the number of assets acquired and the consideration given under the appropriate categories (a-h) where relevant"

The CGT 1 guide from Revenue lists non-chargeable assets in Chapter 5, Section 3. PPR isn't specifically called out in that list, but is noted as a relief in it's own right further on in Chapter 5, Section 5. Since I'd be entering details of the sale of old PPR in Panel L, I suppose my main question is should the purchase of new PPR then be noted in Panel M?

Thanks in advance
 
Your PPR is not a chargeable asset for CGT purposes. You therefore exclude it. Not a huge pile of beans either way.
 
T McGibney said:
Your PPR is not a chargeable asset for CGT purposes. You therefore exclude it. Not a huge pile of beans either way.
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Thanks for your response.

Just so I'm clear, your answer is solely in relation to my question around Panel M (new PPR)?
 
Yes. But you're free to disregard it if you wish. As I said, it doesn't matter a whole pile anyway.
 
A PPR is a chargeable asset.

The relief under section 604 exempts some or all of a chargeable gain on disposal of a house, depending on the period(s) of its use as a PPR.

Strictly speaking you should include it but I'd say 99% of PPR purchases aren't.
 
I'd agree it's a chargable asset but qualifies for an exemption.

Disposals and purchases not usually put on Form 11s but it is correct to put it on the Form 11.
 
Not unless or until Revenue very publicly say they've a problem with its omission. It's not something that you could say affects their ability to assess your tax liability, which is fundamentally what the return is for. Although bear in mind a PPR may not always be a PPR and if you sell it in 12 years time and Revenue ask you about the base cost, wouldn't it be nice if it's already there on your Form 11... ;)

As it currently stands though, not including transactions that are properly for inclusion on the form, could potentially result in a mismatch of data between the return you file and the one that Revenue's systems expected you to file based on all the various sources available to it. If you don't mind having them asking you questions that's no biggie, of course!
 
torblednam said:
Although bear in mind a PPR may not always be a PPR and if you sell it in 12 years time and Revenue ask you about the base cost, wouldn't it be nice if it's already there on your Form 11... ;)

As it currently stands though, not including transactions that are properly for inclusion on the form, could potentially result in a mismatch of data between the return you file and the one that Revenue's systems expected you to file based on all the various sources available to it. If you don't mind having them asking you questions that's no biggie, of course!
Click to expand...
Again that's rather melodramatic. As things stand at the moment, Revenue don't seem to have much if any record of data input on tax returns 12 years ago. Any time they're asked to confirm historic data they tell you it's all "in storage".
 
T McGibney said:
Again that's rather melodramatic. As things stand at the moment, Revenue don't seem to have much if any record of data input on tax returns 12 years ago. Any time they're asked to confirm historic data they tell you it's all "in storage".
Click to expand...

Paper filed data maybe so, but I'm talking about a ROS filed form as is now the norm. Open to correction as I'm not registered for ROS, but I thought stuff of any age can be retrieved from your ROS archive... so you don't need Revenue staff to confirm it for you.

As for my comment re: a mismatch of data, I'm not suggesting you'll get an intervention based on a 12-year old mismatch. I'm saying you may get one a year or two after buying or selling a PPR if there's data indicating you had property transactions but there's no reference to the transactions on your returns.
 
torblednam said:
As for my comment re: a mismatch of data, I'm not suggesting you'll get an intervention based on a 12-year old mismatch. I'm saying you may get one a year or two after buying or selling a PPR if there's data indicating you had property transactions but there's no reference to the transactions on your returns.
Click to expand...

But what would be the point of such an intervention? Hardly to recover tax, which is what Revenue interventions are all about. (Most people who buy their own homes aren't on self-assessment income tax.)
 
T McGibney said:
But what would be the point of such an intervention? Hardly to recover tax, which is what Revenue interventions are all about. (Most people who buy their own homes aren't on self-assessment income tax.)
Click to expand...

To address a tax RISK, and collect any underpaid tax - if Revenue always knew everything the taxpayer knows, they wouldn't need to intervene in an awful lot of cases (it'd be like that film Minority Report!).

That's not how the world works, and information asymmetry means that Revenue may identify as presenting a risk, something that the taxpayer can perfectly adequately clarify / explain. If by completing all the panels on their Form 11 the interaction could've been avoided, I'd have thought that should suit everyone.

(Re: your last point, agreed, but read the thread title - this is a thread about people who file a form 11!)
 
All that is possible in theory but I still think it's all rather melodramatic to suggest that Revenue may be lining up to attack people for failing to record the purchase of their PPRs on Form11 returns.

Brendan's observation that 99% of home buyers don't include this on Form 11 returns is obviously a guess, but I suspect it's not far off the truth.
 
T McGibney said:
All that is possible in theory but I still think it's all rather melodramatic to suggest that Revenue may be lining up to attack people for failing to record the purchase of their PPRs on Form11 returns.
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting Revenue would knowingly do any such thing, quite the opposite actually. I'm specifically talking about a case where for whatever reason it's not obvious (to Revenue based on their information) that a purchase / disposal was of a PPR. Hence my reference to a tax risk.

All I am suggesting is that if there's a space in a form to record it, you're at least as well off to include it.
 
To save people reading through the thread, I have summarised it in my response. Is this a fair reading for most people who need to know only what to do, and not anything more technical.

Brendan

Summary of the thread
1) There is no CGT liability on a Principal Private Residence
2) 99% of people do not record the purchase and sale of their PPR
3) Revenue would not take any action for not recording the purchase.
4) However, it's possible that Revenue may pick up the sale or purchase from other data, and if it's not obviously your PPR, they might ask you a question.
5) There is no disadvantage in recording it
 
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