Self Build in South East - Cost per sq ft

[sman]

Hi, I am currently deciding on houseplans for a self build in the South East. I am looking to build a two-story/dormer over 2000 sq ft. How big i go depends on the price i get from the builder to build. Does anyone have any example prices they have been charged recently? I am kinda caught between two stools. I dont know how big to get the plans done for until i know what i can afford but i cant get a quote until i have plans... Thanks in advance

 

[cruchan09]

I built in Carlow last year but with a builder from Wexford who charged approx. €76 per sq ft for a builders finish but included in the cost was the fitting of sanitary ware, external paths and digging a well. House was one and a half story of 2,500 sq ft. Additional costs from the builder were various extras (garage €15k; extra plumbing €2k; portland cement external finish €3k); reinstatiment of entrance walls and gates to site (€5k) and additional spotlighting (€1k). After that the fit out price can go as high as you want but as a guide we paid €30k for kitchen; €10k for bathrooms (4); €5k for painting incl. paint; €5k for tiling; €5k for flooring and €2k for fireplace. Hope this helps. One piece of advice, if you are using a builder keep an eye on the extras; they add up!

 

[August]

Hi,

We will be building a TF house in Cork within the next six months. The general rule of thumb with timber frame is take the supply and erect cost of the kit and multiply by 4 and you get the average price of the build. Century and IJM have a quote system which will give you a rough idea of cost for the supply and erect kit.

I have also spoken to builders when I was considering going down the block route. Expect to pay anywhere between €100 - €130 a sq ft for a standard builders finish.

 

[sman]

Thanks. 76 sounds a lot better than 130....
Can i ask Cruchan. From start to finish. What did it cost to build?

 

[cruchan09]

Cost from start to finish......difficult to say as lots of extras kept popping up.

Cost of house build (builders finish) €190k
Garage €15

We then spent approx. €70k on the internal fit out, but you can come down significantly on that.

In total excluding the cost of the site; professional fees; ESB fees; garage; boundary wall works; but including initial site / ground works we built for €260k.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jaid79]

cruchan09,

€76 per sq ft for a builders finish but included in the cost was the fitting of sanitary ware, external paths and digging a well. House was one and a half story of 2,500 sq ft. Additional costs from the builder were various extras (garage €15k; extra plumbing €2k; portland cement external finish €3k); reinstatiment of entrance walls and gates to site (€5k) and additional spotlighting (€1k). After that the fit out price can go as high as you want but as a guide we paid €30k for kitchen; €10k for bathrooms (4); €5k for painting incl. paint; €5k for tiling; €5k for flooring and €2k for fireplace. Hope this helps. One piece of advice, if you are using a builder keep an eye on the extras; they add up!

This cost sounds very cheap, did it include the cost of the sanitaryware, landscaping, roads, septic tank (presumming it is not on public drainage, reasoning been it is not on mains water), soak away, was the site level? was the earth disposed of on site or off site, was VAT allowed for at 13.5%, what materials did you supply at no cost to the builder? How long did the build take?

It seems to me the actual cost of building your house was 98E sq ft not 76E and that using your figures, which is subject to change based on your reply.

76 sounds a lot better than 130....

sman, you need to be realistic in your costs and if you are unsure employe a quanitity surveyor. They will advise you of the costs (get them involved at design stage, this may save you more money). If they are good and experienced, they will save you a reasonable amount of money, also you will get a good qualtity product at the end (depending on the scope of works they are employed under). I dont beleave for one second a builder could build a house of 2500 sq ft for 76E per sq ft and still be in bussiness (they need to make money like everybody else).

100E - 130E is far more in tune with current costs, depending on standard of finish (paying a premium will not garantee you a quality finish, but doing your homework and taking the right advise will greatly improve your chances) bear in mind that out side of construction cost you have L.A. contrabutions. It really does depend on the individual site and circumstances.

I am not trying to advertise my services but in the past eight years I have been the project manager/quantity surveyor on a vast number projects, using a builder on ocassion and direct labour on others. I feel that the end product, savings acrewed and a greatly reduced stress factor for the client, far out strip the cost of the fees.

 

[cruchan09]

Jaid79,

to answer your questions, the €190k did not include sanitary ware (but did include it's fitting in 4 bathrooms, except for a jet shower and a larger hot water tank which were extras); landscaping; or roads (other than basic fill and compacting).

It did include septic tank; soakaway; two wells (I insisted that he dig a second to back up the first if ever needed); all site ground works (site is sloped but spread soil on site as per planning conditions); footpaths; wooden floors upstairs; solid doors; and a 10 year homebond.

I supplied no materials to the builder other than a copy of the house plans.

All the extras were asked for by me.

Yes the build was relatively cheap, one of the reasons I choose that builder, but not the only – he has an excellent reputation.

I did not ask to see VAT receipts as that is no concern of mine but as the price was agreed on the basis that he get cheques made out to his company and not cash I assume that he had to declare the VAT.

As I stated in my op the €190k was for a builders finish. Taking the total final cost to me (€260k) as a basis for calculating the cost per square foot (you suggest €98) is not a really accurate way of assessing the building costs. I could have kept the final finish costs to a minimum if I had not put in a €30k kitchen; solid walnut floors; 2 Jacuzzis and a jet shower; limestone floor tiling; etc.

Total time to build the house from breaking down the boundary walls to occupying the house was 11 months, including a 2 month delay when the plumber did a disappearing act.

For a builder that shouldn’t be in business my builder seems to be doing ok (he just sold out an estate of ten houses at €500k each and is building another 10). He was not that far off the next cheapest builder for the same house (€20k ish). €75 - €85 per square foot was about the standard quote for the same finish I was getting from 4 different builders. Builders can be very competitive when they are anxious for business. I could have saved some money by going direct labour but I did not have the time to supervise the site. My brother in law went down this route and took 6 months longer than I did to build, and he had a supervising civil engineer on the job.

I did not use a QS or a supervising architect / engineer. I made sure I specked the job fully and that the price offered by the builder included all the basics (well; well pump; septic tank; solid doors; proper timber flooring; etc). I did get caught for some extras but these were of my own making, e.g. changing the external finish to white Portland cement; putting under floor heating in the kitchen at a late stage; etc). Architects and the like did offer to ‘supervise’ the build (if that’s what you can call the service on offer) for ridiculous amounts of money (10%+ of build costs) but I deal with architects on a professional basis very regularly and I know how useless most of them are (you need no qualifications to be an architect). The thoughts of paying approx. €20k to somebody for a few site visits did not far outweigh the stress of dealing with my builder directly.

The key to keeping costs down is to use a builder you trust and spec the job being priced for as fully as possible so there are no surprises. By all means get a supervising ‘professional’ in to manage the job if you think you need one but make sure they have professional indemnity insurance of at least €1m, and more if your project is a big one. Remember you have a vested interest in keeping the costs down – he doesn’t. Visit your build on regular basis and keep in regular touch with your builder. Don’t pay him anything until each agreed stage has been completed. I still owe my builder €20k as he is still finishing off the last of the very small snags, and I have been in the house for 6 months. Budget for extras and unforeseen items – they will always arise. It is still significantly cheaper to buy a site and build a house than buy a completed build. On the day I moved into my house I had €140k equity in the property based on the banks valuation.

 

[Jaid79]

Cruchan,

What year did you build? and what location? What is your profession with in the building industry?

I would have to agree about the Architects in this country, money for old rope (most of them).

I will reply infull to your post, but for now I am in the middle of something.

Regards,

Jaid

 

[cruchan09]

Jaid,

I agreed the price and started the build in early 2006 (a long time ago now admitedly).

I built in Carlow (close to the Wexford / Wicklow border).

I dont work in the building industry. I work in a professional role that often requires me to spend time on sites and to comment on building design; m&e specs; fire safety construction; etc.

Cruchan

 

[sman]

Thanks very much... Very helpful and informative. Now i have some sort of ballpark costing to work off when deciding how many sq ft to build. I had my pre-planning meeting yesterday and was told i may not get planning for the site i had choosen as there has been a lot of development in the area and that i would be better off picking a more remote site. (I am being given one by my father).The reasoning for this is to keep the countryside as the countryside, but i would have thought keeping the houses together would be best for this....(Even Einstein would have difficulty understanding irish planning guidlines) I am now going to apply for outline planning, which will take a lot longer, but if i get rejected at least i wont have paid for house plans for the site.

 

[Jaid79]

the €190k did not include sanitary ware (but did include it's fitting in 4 bathrooms, except for a jet shower and a larger hot water tank which were extras); landscaping; or roads (other than basic fill and compacting).

How much did your sanitaryware cost (4 bathrooms its alot of sanitaryware)? I`m unsure if you are saying that the roads and landscaping were or were not included?

It did include septic tank; soakaway; two wells (I insisted that he dig a second to back up the first if ever needed); all site ground works (site is sloped but spread soil on site as per planning conditions)

When you say dig, do you not mean bore? What are the depths of the wells? What about pumps and a pump house(maybe you used a submersable), water treatment systems, water softner unit have they been included in your costs? How much did you pay for the additional bore hole, well cap, pump, wiring etc.?

Most people need to dispose of inert materials off site i.e. arisings from the foundations, drainage, soakaways, wells etc. this is because this material is not suitable for usage in landscaping. So I beleave this would be a major cost saving. Did you need a strip foundation or a raft? Was there rock to be broken out on site? Was there demo costs?

Do you have an elevated site?

I supplied no materials to the builder other than a copy of the house plans.

Who supplied the sanitaryware?

All the extras were asked for by me

These so called extras, should have been taken into account, if proper costings where carried out. Nobody should move into a house if there are no cooking and sanitary faclities so this would be a basic cost to allow for.

This comes back to the problem, what is a builders finish and what builder defines that? You should have a full scope of works inplace at tender stage to ensure you get the true cost for the build (turn key) You then omit works if you can not afford some of the frills. Its logical that way.

What you imply is that a builder wont finish the house unless he gets additional money for additional work (extras) Most builders would offer these finishes at the outset. You or the client would have to refuse these inclusions and at a later date pay and premium for them, if you so wished.

Yes the build was relatively cheap, one of the reasons I choose that builder, but not the only – he has an excellent reputation.

Why was the build relatively cheap (scope of work was limited)? How much did you brother in law build his house for (he used direct labour)? Was the quality of the materials and labour of a high sandard?

I did not ask to see VAT receipts as that is no concern of mine but as the price was agreed on the basis that he get cheques made out to his company and not cash I assume that he had to declare the VAT.

VAT is a concern of yours as it effects the build cost, you actualy got your house built for 76E less 13.5% = 65.74E per sq ft (this is based on your figures)

As I stated in my op the €190k was for a builders finish. Taking the total final cost to me (€260k) as a basis for calculating the cost per square foot (you suggest €98) is not a really accurate way of assessing the building costs. I could have kept the final finish costs to a minimum if I had not put in a €30k kitchen; solid walnut floors; 2 Jacuzzis and a jet shower; limestone floor tiling; etc.

On the contrary may way is a far more accurate way of assessing the building costs than yours. You started of stating that you built you house for 76E per sq ft and that is clearly not the case.

Your correct in saying that you could have kept your finishing costs to a minimum, but you still need to put some sort of kitchen, tiles, floor in. In any case for a house of 2500sq ft you would expect to spend 10 - 15k on a kitchen and utitlity room (all depending on spec. & design required)

You suppled the Jacuzzis, did you also supply the limestone flooring?

For a builder that shouldn’t be in business my builder seems to be doing ok (he just sold out an estate of ten houses at €500k each and is building another 10). He was not that far off the next cheapest builder for the same house (€20k ish). €75 - €85 per square foot was about the standard quote for the same finish I was getting from 4 different builders. Builders can be very competitive when they are anxious for business. I could have saved some money by going direct labour but I did not have the time to supervise the site. My brother in law went down this route and took 6 months longer than I did to build, and he had a supervising civil engineer on the job.

If your builder is a developer and making a good margin, why would they waste their time doing a job of your scale, with little or no margin on it?

Your right builders can be competitive, but they wont do a job at a loss or for love and if they do they wont be building for long. Also if your builder was/is building so many houses, with more in the pipeline why would he be anxious for your business?

How much money do you think you could have saved by doing your build by direct labour, 15% - 20% maybe? 65E per sq ft, less the saving = 55E - 52E per sq ft (I dont think so)

I made sure I specked the job fully. I did get caught for some extras.

You got "caught" for quite a few extras, seeing that you fully specified the job.

The key to keeping costs down is to use a builder you trust and spec the job being priced for as fully as possible so there are no surprises.

Why did you not fully spec the job? did you not think you where going to need a kitchen, floor and wall finishes and the like?

By all means get a supervising ‘professional’ in to manage the job if you think you need one but make sure they have professional indemnity insurance of at least €1m

Why would the PM need P.I. they are not the designer (assumming that you employed an Architect or Engineer to carry out a design) the design is covered by the Architect or Engineer and Homebond, so unless PM is the Architect, Engineer there is no point in paying twice for P.I. cover, I`m sure the PM could and would be happy to arrange such cover by would charge you the additional costs and ask you would you not like to save the money and spend it some where else?

Budget for extras and unforeseen items – they will always arise

Why if you get a proper costing done and site investigations, finalise a design. You should be looking to save money not spend more on extras. Thats some of the reasons in having prefessional guidance.

It is still significantly cheaper to buy a site and build a house than buy a completed build. On the day I moved into my house I had €140k equity in the property based on the banks valuation.

It seems you happy to fudge figures to make point.

You may have had 140k in equity but this could be a result of location, rising market in the area, cheap site and a list of other factors that are not directy related to a build cost.

I would like you to realise and other member viewing that the 76E per sq ft (inc. VAT) is an unrealistic figure to quote as a guide. This could get others in to hot water with regards the provision for cost.

If some body is unfimilar with construction, cost, contracts, legal obligation, insurances, tendering, procurement etc... They should seek professional advice.

Would you please send me on the contact details of your builder, as I would like him to tender some work. Would you recomend him?

You may reply to this post but I will not be getting into a debate with you. I felt I must reply to your post at least once in reasonable detail, but we are both busy people "professionals" I`m sure you and I both need to get on with work that pays.

I hope you are very happy in your new home, and get the 20k worth of snags done. (thats alot of snags in any house)

Regards,

Jaid

 

[cruchan09]

Jaid,

I know what I paid for my house and I know that I got a good deal. Trying to justiy your profession 'without advertising your services' by ranting is pretty amusing but is fairly typical of the construction profession and their vested interests. You may not want to get into a debate with me as you say but me thinks that is more to kill talk of self builds without the input of technical persons such as QS more so than any other reason. I will accept your gracious permission to reposnd to your last post.

Every question you asked in your last post was previosly answered by me. To recap:
1. I agreed a price with a builder for a fixed finish - a builders finish - €190k

2. I agreed to pay €15k for a garage

3. I paid for the finishing touches seperately i.e. kitchen, sanitary ware; fire place, roads, etc

4. My builder fit the sanitary ware

5. The extras I encountered were of my own making. If you as a QS can predict the changes of mind that I had during the build which resulted in these extra charges then send Irish Physics Live a cv.

6. Yes my wells were bored, not dug; but the price included boring the wells, capping, pump and all electrics. The pump is housed in the garage (you don't seriously think that a pump house should be built in addition to a garage - not very economical). Both wells run to apprx. 100-110m. The basic water treatment system I paid for, despite water sampling showing that the water was of potable quality and advice from a hydrologist that contamination of the water in my wells given their location and depth was extremely unlikely.

7. The ground works were minimal - all excavted soil was used to fill in some ditches along the site boundary and to strengthen the bank at the front of the site which retained a very old granite wall.

8. At no stage did I imply that the builder would not finish the house if he did not get extras. In my case the extras which went to the builder were minimal. Again I reiterate the point that nobody knows what changes of mind are going to be made by a client during a build, so nobody can account for them

9. Explain why VAT is a concern of mine? As an individual I am not registered for VAT so why should I be interetsed?

10. In my op I stated that the cost of building my house to a builders finish was approx. €76 per sq ft, and it was. My definition of builders finish is what I stated in this post.

11. I wish I had talked to you about were I could get a kitchen for a 2,500sq ft house for €10-15k. The kitchen in my house is 360 sq ft.

12. I don't know why my builder took on my house when he had others on the go. Perhaps the fact that he had a team of subbies working on ten houses meant he could transfer them to my site as and when needed at a minimum cost.

13. From what I can see you seem to think that I should have specked the kitchen and bathrooms etc through the builder. This is a good way to pay over the odds.

14. Your comment on the requirement for Professional Indemnity really worries me. PI is designed to compensate any loss incurred through the provision of poor or bad advice by a 'professional' (I carry €6.5m PI). If you are acting as a PM on projects and you carry no PI insurance then your client has no come back against you if you make a mess of anything. Anybody employing a 'professional' like a QS who doesn'y carry PI is making a big mistake.

15. I don't have €20k worth of snags in my home - in fact the only snag I have left is a problem with a window or two. I withheld €20k as a matter of good practicse. As far as I am aware on a small build like this a defects warranty period would be difficult to enforce.

16. I accept your point about people reading these posts and thinking they can build a house for €76 sq ft. Again I come back to my op - I built a house for €190k to a builders finish and then paid for the final fit out - I haver not fudged any point. Why would I? I have no vested interest.

17. Your point on my equity not being related to my build cost is amusing. My build cost determines the size of my loan and therefore my equity....

18. I would reccomend my builder to anybody. I have received two pm's asking for his contact details which I will send on when I clear it with him. I don't want to give his mobile number out without consulting him first as a courtesy.

19. I got four quotes for my build. All except one were within €20k of each other (excluding the garage). One builder came down significantly on the price if I agreed to pay cash - I didn't.


Remeber I have no vested interest here, I am simply relating how I built my house. Whilst I have a perhipheral involement in the construction industry I deal with a different type of project (usually between €5-35 million) so I have no interest in playing up or down a QS or architects services, on these type of projects they are always involved. As I said in an earlier post if you think you need a professional to advise you get one, but remember if he is a percentage of the build cost why would he want to keep the cost down?

Cruchan09

 

[Brenbo]

,
Thanks and fair play for supplying us with your prices, and so clearly.
It is what keeps this forum going and not begrudges like JAID79, a want to be smart ass.

 

[Jaid79]

Cruchan & Brenbo,

I wanted to give advise that is constructive and reallistic. This is not directed to people that are so wise like you. For example not everybody has the know how or time to do what you done Cruchan. You seem to have the inside track (credit where credit is due) but the costs you present to others are unclear and to a certain extent misleading, exculding Brenbo.

I do not wish or want to justife my job or any other construction profesionals for that matter. The results I acheive on a project by project bases speak for themselfs. Just like you Cruchan (I`m assuming, you are an Engineer or the like? or a least degree qualified) I went to Uni. + years of experence. They teach ethic`s where I was tought and I see myself as a very ethical person. So conflict of interest or vested intrests hardly come into it. I insist on a fixed fee, and any saving after that I get a small % of which drives me too save money. Also if somebody wanted to put a clause in to the contract that I suffer a % of any overspend so be it (providing it was foreseeable at the stage I entering into the agreement).

Brenbo, I hope I have supplied you with food for though as well, you dont seem to like it but I feel it was constructive and tought proking at least.

So thats that lads, best of luck.

sman I hope I was of some asistance to you.

With regard

 

[cruchan09]

Jaid,

apologies if I questioned your ethics. That was not my intention. At the very least I think that all persons reading this thread who intend to self build will indeed be given food for thought.

Cruchan

 

[Duffman]

There always seems to be confusion about how much a house costs per sq ft. You can use many different criteria for 'builders finish' which is basically a matter of opinion. As far as I'm concerned the only figure that matters is the final one - i.e. how much cash you spent PLUS your final mortgage.
I built a house in Co. Waterford by direct labour & moved in last March. The total cost was just over 100K per sq ft (2200 sq ft bungalow). That includes a fully completed house ready to live in, large garage & all groundworks needed for services ( not on mains for elec. water waste etc). I even include some furniture in that figure.
Its no good talking about builders finish, as fitting out will always cost more than you expect & is based on personal taste anyway.

 

[AndyH]

As Duffman said there can be varying degrees of what builder's finish is.

Last year I was involved with a house build project which came in at €95/sqft.
This year we are just finishing a house which is coming in at €168/sqft fully finished. There a lot of factors which can govern the cost per sqft measure. House designs which move away from 4 square walls and incorporate more angles and wall joins, this has significant impacts throughout the build. Difficult ground and large amounts of excavation work. Through in heat pumps, hi spec bathrooms and kitchen and finishes into the mix and your developer's standard 100/sqft is well left behind.

As an example take a look at this breakdown and see where costs can go north.

Fees: Legal/Surveyor/Engineer/QS/ € 7,000
Site Foreman € 19,000
Insurances € 3,200
ESB € 1,800
Well € 3,000
Waste Treatment unit € 3,500
Plant & tool hire, scaffolding,container,security fencing, + misc € 13,000
Groundworks (Excavation, removal, trenching, plant) € 27,000
Foundations to finished slab € 27,000

Timberframe € 58,000
Labour
- Blocklaying € 4,500
- Stonework € 7,700
- Slating & roof leadwork € 4,500
- Cedar cladding, soffit & fascia € 7,000
- General labour € 5,500
- Fermacell boarding € 8,000
- Fermacell finishing (excludes a load of work I did on this) € 4,000
- Ceiling skim € 2,500
- External plastering € 3,000
- Tiling € 12,000
- Floor levelling € 4,000
- Carpentry € 3,200
- Painting € 3,500
- Ext. works (retaining wall, fencing, ...) € 5,000
GS Heat Pump, UFH, 500L cyl with own heat pump € 20,000
Plumber € 8,000
4 Bathrooms fit out € 15,500
Electrical & lights € 11,400
Material Costs
- Windows & ext doors € 40,000
- Internal doors € 5,800
- Slates, Cedar, Stone, cills, misc building supplies external € 38,700
- Insulation € 7,000
- Internal doors, arch, skirting € 5,700
- Fermacell € 7,000
- Central vac € 1,200
- Kitchen € 37,500
- Inset stove € 1,600
- Tiles € 10,000
- Wood floors (supply & fit) € 7,600
TOTAL €453,900
Size 2700 sqft (€168/sqft)
Take out Kitchen, tiles, floors, bathroom fittings ... it is more like 137/sqft.
AndyH

 

[Silvergirl]

Guys

Aside from the obivous legal implications, what's the draw back about doing 'cash' jobs when building?

We are getting dual prices from lots of trades and it's tempting...

Thanks

 

[Jaid79]

The ownus is not on you to pay the VAT, it is on the builder or trades person. So to the best of my knowledge there are no draw backs for you only for the trades if the revenue come knocking (I dont agree with cash payments for the purpose of VAT avoidance)

 

[sman]

Thanks very much guys. Didnt mean to start an argument!!! but this will definitely be useful to me when i finally get around to designing my house and go about getting quotes from builders