RTE Primetime Investigation into creches
- Thread starter DB74
- Start date
Thanks for that DB74, no doubt it'll be a somewhat difficult watch, but at the same time I really appreciate this sort of investigative journalism for shedding light on issues we otherwise wouldn't know about.
I wish there were more such TV exposures - we've got a very interesting case here in Wicklow concerning junkets taken by members of the Wicklow Enterprise Board and their families.
They spent €25,000 on one trip to Florida from October 29 to November 11, which included Disney World, Adventure Boat Rides, Entrance to Kennedy Space Centre followed by one dinner at a Bistro costing $1,000.
An absolutely outrageous waste of taxpayers money which should have been used, as intended, to assist small businesses and start-ups in the county.
I wish there were more such TV exposures - we've got a very interesting case here in Wicklow concerning junkets taken by members of the Wicklow Enterprise Board and their families.
They spent €25,000 on one trip to Florida from October 29 to November 11, which included Disney World, Adventure Boat Rides, Entrance to Kennedy Space Centre followed by one dinner at a Bistro costing $1,000.
An absolutely outrageous waste of taxpayers money which should have been used, as intended, to assist small businesses and start-ups in the county.
Before I watch this, I would like to ask the following:
What level of education/qualification and expertise do parents expect that Child Care employees will have?
These are the people who are supervising your children for an entire day for a number of years.
Marion
(58 views on this thread so far. there must be more parents than this on AAM who have children in childcare. I don't have any btw.)
What level of education/qualification and expertise do parents expect that Child Care employees will have?
These are the people who are supervising your children for an entire day for a number of years.
Marion
(58 views on this thread so far. there must be more parents than this on AAM who have children in childcare. I don't have any btw.)
They are expected to have fetac training and not shout or mishandle their charges at a minimum I would say. My kids used to attend a local community crèche which had very low staff turnover and never had a problem with the care they received. Knew all the staff on a first name basis and they would still enquire after them 4years later.
I have taught many Childcare students at Fetac level 5 and I have to say that while I am not a childcare-specific teacher (they do other subjects) that I would have been reluctant to send children to some of them if I had children and if I knew where they were employed.
Marion
Marion
I think the identities were not divulged because fair procedures were not followed in that they were not aware that they were being filmed.
Very disturbing revelations.
It just goes to show that inspections per se are meaningless.
Also, you can have all the perfect paperwork in the world in order but what does it prove? Nothing!
Marion
Very disturbing revelations.
It just goes to show that inspections per se are meaningless.
Also, you can have all the perfect paperwork in the world in order but what does it prove? Nothing!
Marion
Sickening stuff to watch as a father of kids in a creche in Dublin currently.
But what can you expect..our politicians fighting in the Dail over penalty points and personalities. Main concern is to be re-elected or have a family member elected in their place.
The 'Free Market' is left to run the creche 'industry' in Ireland with profit as the main goal. Our schools are'nt run for profit so why are our creches?
The State 'Regulator', in this case the HSE, don't carry out enough inspections. And even if they do find anything serious, the creche is allowed to continue on as before and still draw down state funding.
They say they're short staff for visits. But there's an abundance of staff in admin roles throughout the HSE (500 at least in the Dept of Health itself doing God only knows what). But they can't be let go (to free funds for recruitment of staff in areas where they are needed) or moved around because the Unions call the shots and some ruling from 50 years ago says there has to be X # of staff in X area...they spend their time protecting workers pay, and stopping the useless ones getting disciplined/fired. Screw the users of the public services...they're of secondary concern.
Pobal pay out the cheques on behalf of the State...what sort of controls or checks do they perform?
I don't buy the 'staff getting poor pay argument, what do you expect'. You've either got it in you to really care for kids and be good with them or you don't....pay would not cloud your judgement on this.
The HSE and the FG Minister refused to appear last night even though they knew for a week at least that this was going to happen.
Labour want to reduce child benefit again to pay for another year (3 hrs a day, 39wks only by the way so that 'free year' title is misleading) in the creche.
Previous FF led Govt's let house prices go through the roof (to the benefit of their builder buddies/members) so both parents were forced out to work to pay the bills.
We know from previous exposé's that our old people get treated like animals in some care homes, we now know our kids are possibly getting substandard care also (God knows what's going on in Mental hospitals as we speak and thats a whole scandal yet to break).
I've said it time and time again, this country is broken. I had hoped the IMF would shock us into some sort of rebirth/major change but they've gone light on us as we're a 1st world European country.
We are a very rotten people in a very rotten country
But what can you expect..our politicians fighting in the Dail over penalty points and personalities. Main concern is to be re-elected or have a family member elected in their place.
The 'Free Market' is left to run the creche 'industry' in Ireland with profit as the main goal. Our schools are'nt run for profit so why are our creches?
The State 'Regulator', in this case the HSE, don't carry out enough inspections. And even if they do find anything serious, the creche is allowed to continue on as before and still draw down state funding.
They say they're short staff for visits. But there's an abundance of staff in admin roles throughout the HSE (500 at least in the Dept of Health itself doing God only knows what). But they can't be let go (to free funds for recruitment of staff in areas where they are needed) or moved around because the Unions call the shots and some ruling from 50 years ago says there has to be X # of staff in X area...they spend their time protecting workers pay, and stopping the useless ones getting disciplined/fired. Screw the users of the public services...they're of secondary concern.
Pobal pay out the cheques on behalf of the State...what sort of controls or checks do they perform?
I don't buy the 'staff getting poor pay argument, what do you expect'. You've either got it in you to really care for kids and be good with them or you don't....pay would not cloud your judgement on this.
The HSE and the FG Minister refused to appear last night even though they knew for a week at least that this was going to happen.
Labour want to reduce child benefit again to pay for another year (3 hrs a day, 39wks only by the way so that 'free year' title is misleading) in the creche.
Previous FF led Govt's let house prices go through the roof (to the benefit of their builder buddies/members) so both parents were forced out to work to pay the bills.
We know from previous exposé's that our old people get treated like animals in some care homes, we now know our kids are possibly getting substandard care also (God knows what's going on in Mental hospitals as we speak and thats a whole scandal yet to break).
I've said it time and time again, this country is broken. I had hoped the IMF would shock us into some sort of rebirth/major change but they've gone light on us as we're a 1st world European country.
We are a very rotten people in a very rotten country
I am interested in the arguments for and against public or private provision of services like health and childcare.
Generally, I am pro market provision.
I don't mind normal profits being earned if the service is efficient, and waiting lists are short. (Example: Specsavers opticians?)
However, if private provision means low pay for workers and massive profits for the providers, then I am unhappy.
The Independent reports today about the three creches featured on RTE PrimeTime:
Giraffe Childcare - staff paid 18,200 on average
Links Childcare and Montessori Ltd., founded by Malahide businesswoman Deirdre Kelly - accumulate profits = 1.7m
Links Childcare - 2m in rent paid by the company to its directors between 2007 and 2010.
I am happy that CB is reduced, and that child edu is increased, but not if the funds end up in rent and profit payments.
Generally, I am pro market provision.
I don't mind normal profits being earned if the service is efficient, and waiting lists are short. (Example: Specsavers opticians?)
However, if private provision means low pay for workers and massive profits for the providers, then I am unhappy.
The Independent reports today about the three creches featured on RTE PrimeTime:
Giraffe Childcare - staff paid 18,200 on average
Links Childcare and Montessori Ltd., founded by Malahide businesswoman Deirdre Kelly - accumulate profits = 1.7m
Links Childcare - 2m in rent paid by the company to its directors between 2007 and 2010.
I am happy that CB is reduced, and that child edu is increased, but not if the funds end up in rent and profit payments.
Marion I don't understand what "skills" you are referring to but my kids both attended a montesorri year as their final year in the creche before school and were taught by trained montesorri teachers and felt this did help their development. THey learned some nursery rhymes and ther numbers but mostly played in the attache playground rather than learned. Felt there was time enough for that in school.
I would expect if I was working alongside colleagues that were abusive to their charges that I would whistleblow so to me the staff that looked on and let this happen are as bad. Years ago when I went to school the teachers were very abusive to their pupils until this culture was stamped out and pupils knew their rights and believe that unless their is zero tolerance to bad treatment then it will continue as it did for years in schools while they were allowed to.
I would expect if I was working alongside colleagues that were abusive to their charges that I would whistleblow so to me the staff that looked on and let this happen are as bad. Years ago when I went to school the teachers were very abusive to their pupils until this culture was stamped out and pupils knew their rights and believe that unless their is zero tolerance to bad treatment then it will continue as it did for years in schools while they were allowed to.
Appalled and shocked by the Primetime footage last night of what was essentially child abuse. Obviously working in a creche can be very demanding, but how some of those people could think their behaviour was okay is beyond me.
Today the focus is all on ramping up inspections but I don't see how any inspection, even spot inspections, would prevent the kind of stuff on show last night. Obviously the kids won't be thrown around like ragdolls and strapped into their chairs when an inspector is present.
Constant CCTV recording and random inspections of the footage is one possible solution imo.
Today the focus is all on ramping up inspections but I don't see how any inspection, even spot inspections, would prevent the kind of stuff on show last night. Obviously the kids won't be thrown around like ragdolls and strapped into their chairs when an inspector is present.
Constant CCTV recording and random inspections of the footage is one possible solution imo.
Bill Struth
Registered User
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There's a pre-school facility in a house in my estate. Before they had applied for (and were refused) planning permission they were already operating and had even been given HSE funding. Their initial planning refusal was based on the half finished house being unsuitable for the purpose. They hadn't even got a fire safety certificate. Yet parents would leave their kids there every morning. Do these people do any research into where they leave their children?
They have since been granted conditional permission, despite there being no new information in their planning appeal, icluding no fire safety certificate. Baffling.
They have since been granted conditional permission, despite there being no new information in their planning appeal, icluding no fire safety certificate. Baffling.
Very disturbing stuff and I would imagine a lot of parents had huge difficulty dropping their children off at the creche this morning.
It really is hard to see the point of inspections if creche's are allowed to repeatedly ignore criticisms and continue to make the same mistakes. The HSE have a lot to answer for here.
Also, while some of the staff featured clearly should not be working with children; others seemed to be acting from complete ignorance as to how a child develops and thinks and were expecting a level of understanding and self discipline from 18 month old babies that was totally unrealistic. Why were the more trained and experienced supervisors and managers not stepping in and showing them how to do things properly? So again, while some of the creche's tried to excuse their behaviour on the grounds that they've sacked or suspended the staff concerned, the problem is a lot more fundamental than that.
I suspect there are people out there making a lot of money from running creches and are simply treating it like a profit turning business and not the important service it is.
It really is hard to see the point of inspections if creche's are allowed to repeatedly ignore criticisms and continue to make the same mistakes. The HSE have a lot to answer for here.
Also, while some of the staff featured clearly should not be working with children; others seemed to be acting from complete ignorance as to how a child develops and thinks and were expecting a level of understanding and self discipline from 18 month old babies that was totally unrealistic. Why were the more trained and experienced supervisors and managers not stepping in and showing them how to do things properly? So again, while some of the creche's tried to excuse their behaviour on the grounds that they've sacked or suspended the staff concerned, the problem is a lot more fundamental than that.
I suspect there are people out there making a lot of money from running creches and are simply treating it like a profit turning business and not the important service it is.
The question is why does it always take a media exposé for these things to come to light. It was the same with nursing homes. I know there is legislation planned to make it a statutory obligation for people to reports concerns that they have and it can't come soon enough. Am sure these places are full of great staff but they still stood back and allowed the minority to behave like that. Personally, I would rather be broke and out of work than work people who treated children like that.
T McGibney
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Great idea, let's put webcams into the Financial Regulator's office!
In fairness I know of a commercial enterprise that provides that service - child care and OAP care mainly I think.
When vulnerable people are involved I think its fair enough - obviously access to the "feed" should be limited to those with a genuine vested interest, but if you've nothing to hide then I dont see the problem. Same for prisons or garda cells - which isnt there a garda regulator with access to that.
Hmmm. Well as a parent with a child in a creche it was certainly upsetting to see children in distress.
I'm not sure what to make of it though. The programme itself was, to be blunt, terrible. The token 2 seconds at the start about good practice at the creches didn't provide any balance at all and, from what I could see, the most distressing issues seemed to stem from one or two individual employees rather than it being widespread among all staff. I think that needed to be made clearer.
Obviously, that leads to conclusions about the management of the creches as opposed to the HSE. No inspection system is perfect or for that matter infallible, especially with the resources allocated.
More information needs to be made available to parents in deciding what creche they will use than is currently publically available. However, having said that, when selecting a creche for my child, we looked at two of the companies involved in the programme and based upon a visit and a bit of time on the internet, we quickly ruled them out. I'm not blaming the parents, but deciding which creche to put your child in is a huge and important decision, it's easy enough to establish some fundamental information on the creches that should flag up warning signs. I just wonder how parents decided on those creches that to me just had too many red flags against them to mean I would never consider them for my child or recommend them.
The critical questions are on how creches are staffed, more importantly managed. What we don't know from the programme is the quantity of good caring and excellent staff to the ones who clearly should not be allowed near a child in any circumstances.
I'm not sure what to make of it though. The programme itself was, to be blunt, terrible. The token 2 seconds at the start about good practice at the creches didn't provide any balance at all and, from what I could see, the most distressing issues seemed to stem from one or two individual employees rather than it being widespread among all staff. I think that needed to be made clearer.
Obviously, that leads to conclusions about the management of the creches as opposed to the HSE. No inspection system is perfect or for that matter infallible, especially with the resources allocated.
More information needs to be made available to parents in deciding what creche they will use than is currently publically available. However, having said that, when selecting a creche for my child, we looked at two of the companies involved in the programme and based upon a visit and a bit of time on the internet, we quickly ruled them out. I'm not blaming the parents, but deciding which creche to put your child in is a huge and important decision, it's easy enough to establish some fundamental information on the creches that should flag up warning signs. I just wonder how parents decided on those creches that to me just had too many red flags against them to mean I would never consider them for my child or recommend them.
The critical questions are on how creches are staffed, more importantly managed. What we don't know from the programme is the quantity of good caring and excellent staff to the ones who clearly should not be allowed near a child in any circumstances.
Couldn't happen due to restrictions on filming children, plus how can it be guaranteed that only I will be able to view my child when rooms are shared with other children.
I don't think that's fair. The voiceover stressed on several occasions throughout the programme that their journalist had seen plenty of good practice and excellent care. They also made it clear that they selected creches that had already been the subject of complaints. I thought it was as balanced as it could be, given how emotive the subject matter was.