Rent a room/RTB conflict

I

irishfinanceguy

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I wish to buy a home with the aim of having a long term tenant in a “nearly but not quite” self contained unit to avail of the rent a room scheme.

However I understand if it is self contained it requires RTB input, which may become messy with a rogue tenant.

Does anyone know where it stops being self contained? I.e. could you share a utility room only? And lock the door on your side of the utility room? Essentially I wonder is there a way to do this whilst maintaining them as licensees with minimal disruption and sharing of shared space. How is a shared space defined?
“a separate dwelling within a larger property that has its own bathroom and cooking facilities”

so could you have a “shared equal access bathroom” that you rarely use?
This link seems to imply once its in main property its okay? https://hostingpower.ie/blogPage/RTB_in_Ireland_When_It_Does_and_Doesnt_Apply

Many thanks
 
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OK, in your research you need to be careful, because the 'rent a room' Revenue criteria is a lot different to the RTB criteria, and one has very little to do with the other.

Some of the advice in the linked article is misleading, and doesn't cover all scenarios where a tenancy must be registered. It seems to be confused between Revenue & RTB criteria.

If it's a self-contained unit that was originally part of the main house, you can elect to opt out of 'Part 4' provisions only, but only if agreed in writing before the tenancy commences: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25
 
My memory is that a garden chalet is a separate unit for both tax and RTB.

Whereas a converted garage, attached to the main house, part of the fabric of that building, even with it's own door and utilities is ok for the rent a room scheme. But I've no clue about the RTB rules are as the legislation changes constantly.

I've recommended to relatives building to build a self contained unit, attached, to the house. 14K tax free is pretty handy and easily achievable in a city.

So Revenue:

What type of residence qualifies?

This page explains what properties are required to benefit from rent a room relief.
www.revenue.ie www.revenue.ie

The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.

If this unit is not attached to the property it cannot qualify for the relief.
RTB

Is Your Property Exempt from Registration? | Residential Tenancies Board

RTB operates Ireland's National Tenancy Register and resolving disputes between Landlords, tenants and third parties. Governed by residential Tenancies Act 2004. View more information on landlords and tenancies.
www.rtb.ie www.rtb.ie
The RTB remit does not extend to:
  • the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
(to me that's a bit of a conflict with the revenue definition of self contained unit and I'd hazard a guess that revenue trumps RTB, but you'd need to look at the primary legislation that the RTB is relying on)
 
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Bronte said:
My memory is that a garden chalet is a separate unit for both tax and RTB.

Whereas a converted garage, attached to the main house, part of the fabric of that building, even with it's own door and utilities is ok for the rent a room scheme. But I've no clue about the RTB rules are as the legislation changes constantly.

I've recommended to relatives building to build a self contained unit, attached, to the house. 14K tax free is pretty handy and easily achievable in a city.

So Revenue:

What type of residence qualifies?

This page explains what properties are required to benefit from rent a room relief.
www.revenue.ie www.revenue.ie

The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.

If this unit is not attached to the property it cannot qualify for the relief.
RTB

Is Your Property Exempt from Registration? | Residential Tenancies Board

RTB operates Ireland's National Tenancy Register and resolving disputes between Landlords, tenants and third parties. Governed by residential Tenancies Act 2004. View more information on landlords and tenancies.
www.rtb.ie www.rtb.ie
The RTB remit does not extend to:
  • the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
(to me that's a bit of a conflict with the revenue definition of self contained unit and I'd hazard a guess that revenue trumps RTB, but you'd need to look at the primary legislation that the RTB is relying on)
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RedOnion said:
OK, in your research you need to be careful, because the 'rent a room' Revenue criteria is a lot different to the RTB criteria, and one has very little to do with the other.

Some of the advice in the linked article is misleading, and doesn't cover all scenarios where a tenancy must be registered. It seems to be confused between Revenue & RTB criteria.

If it's a self-contained unit that was originally part of the main house, you can elect to opt out of 'Part 4' provisions only, but only if agreed in writing before the tenancy commences: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25
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I have read the legislation, but doesnt appear to define what constitues a self contained unti means. Is a shared bathroom with locked doors on one side suitable for a licensee? Hard to know where to find the answer, rtb stated grey area when I called
 
You are wasting you time with the RTB, and even worse is phoning them up. You cannot rely on any advice given to you orally. I very much doubt you've found any grey area and you'll land in hot water if you don't get it right.

To give you an example, because I was tax complaint and paid NPPR per unit, and not per property, all good you might think. (and obviously registered with the RTB each unit/flat). So now my solicitor has had to hold back monies (sale going thru) on a converted flat, that was no longer suitable for renting about 4 years before NPPR ended. Now this doesn't unduly bother me as I think there is 3 years and reducing left on the NPPR fine. Plus my solicitor will just hold the money until the timeline goes down. But these are the kinds of problems you could run into.

So you get your advice from RTB by email.
 
T McGibney said:
Even if you do, you'll find they'll accept zero responsibility for it.
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Absolutely. They are one of the worst I've ever had the misfortune to have dealt with. I have the grim task of de registering ahead of me but I need to be in a strong frame of mind to dare go into my registrations.

(Good news on NPPR, it's only 2 years for me and one expires in March next).

What questions like the OP poses, demonstrates what a minefield it is to be a landlord and to do everything correctly.
 
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irishfinanceguy said:
I wish to buy a home with the aim of having a long term tenant in a “nearly but not quite” self contained unit to avail of the rent a room scheme.

However I understand if it is self contained it requires RTB input, which may become messy with a rogue tenant.

Does anyone know where it stops being self contained? I.e. could you share a utility room only? And lock the door on your side of the utility room? Essentially I wonder is there a way to do this whilst maintaining them as licensees with minimal disruption and sharing of shared space. How is a shared space defined?
“a separate dwelling within a larger property that has its own bathroom and cooking facilities”

so could you have a “shared equal access bathroom” that you rarely use?
This link seems to imply once its in main property its okay? https://hostingpower.ie/blogPage/RTB_in_Ireland_When_It_Does_and_Doesnt_Apply

Many thanks
Click to expand...
Hi
I have been through this. I have a unit attached to main house with its own entrance. Thats what I claim under rent a room (seperate but attached unit) My tenants are not tenants but licencees and they have a licence not a tenancy. RTB were all over the shop on this - they have not got a clue - told me to register, then deregister, then refunded me.... From what you say I see no problem, if they share with you or are in separate but attached its still rent a room. It cant be a stand alone seperate building. How you break up the shared space is up to you - it can be shared kitchen, bathroom, utility etc. Thats written into the licence which you draw up yourself.
 
ThisisMax said:
Hi
I have been through this. I have a unit attached to main house with its own entrance. Thats what I claim under rent a room (seperate but attached unit) My tenants are not tenants but licencees and they have a licence not a tenancy. RTB were all over the shop on this - they have not got a clue - told me to register, then deregister, then refunded me.... From what you say I see no problem, if they share with you or are in separate but attached its still rent a room. It cant be a stand alone seperate building. How you break up the shared space is up to you - it can be shared kitchen, bathroom, utility etc. Thats written into the licence which you draw up yourself.
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I dont mind sharing a bathroom if it means they remain a licensee, if its that simple small price to play. They will have their own kitchen
 
irishfinanceguy said:
I dont mind sharing a bathroom if it means they remain a licensee, if its that simple small price to play. They will have their own kitchen
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Thats rent a room then, You just have to declare on your personal tax form as income up to the threshold every year. The total must not exceed the threshold ( I think 14K?) and that total also includes bills so make sure you are clear on how electricity gets paid etc. I built into the rental cost. If you want to opt out yearly you can with Revenue but remember you then have to issue a lease and RTB reg etc..... (if continuing to rent)
You must make sure your renter understands and signs a document that explains the scheme and their inability to get RTB representation in the event of a dispute.
 
ThisisMax said:
If you want to opt out yearly you can with Revenue but remember you then have to issue a lease and RTB reg etc..... (if continuing to rent)
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I don't think this is at all true. The nature of the accommodation doesn't change just because the rent-a-room exemption has been lost.
 
T McGibney said:
I don't think this is at all true. The nature of the accommodation doesn't change just because the rent-a-room exemption has been lost.
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It is true. Page 7 of the PDF linked. If you choose to not do any rental at all thats fine you can not show any income. If you opt out and rent as per normal then you issue a lease as per the law.

'6.2 Opting out of the scheme
An individual is not obliged to avail of rent-a-room relief where the gross income is
below the exempt limit and can specifically elect to have the income assessed, in the
normal way, as rental income under Case V or under Case IV in relation to payments
arising for the provision of goods or services in connection with the room rentals. An
election must be made for each year for which the individual does not wish the relief
to apply. The election must be made in writing to the individual’s tax office on or
before the return filing date for the tax year. Where an individual is required to
submit an annual tax return, the election is made by marking the relevant box in the
‘Exempt Income’ section of the return'

 
ThisisMax said:
It is true. Page 7 of the PDF linked. If you choose to not do any rental at all thats fine you can not show any income. If you opt out and rent as per normal then you issue a lease as per the law.
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That's weird. The word "lease" doesn't appear on page 7 or anywhere else on that document.

Did you make that up?
 
T McGibney said:
That's weird. The word "lease" doesn't appear on page 7 or anywhere else on that document.

Did you make that up?
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Let me spell it out: I was giving you the information to illustrate the opt out option which you wrongly assumed was not possible.

If you want to opt out yearly from the rent a room scheme you can opt out with Revenue but remember you then have to issue a lease and RTB reg etc..... (if continuing to rent as a regular landlord)

This means, I can decide I want possession of my house/ room/ unit that I have rent a room in and opt out of rent a room for this - I can end the licence, gain occupancy and re - let it. This can be to the same tenant if they are happy to accept extra rent/ lease/ RTB registration and I can specify the term/ conditions of lease. Once that is over I can opt back into rent a room if I wish once lease is over- I notify revenue and return tax return noting this. If I dont want to do rent a room I can rent it on open market using a lease and RTB registration to abide by the law.

Understood or just being pedantic?

See a worked (simple example on page 11 & 12)
 
ThisisMax said:
Let me spell it out: I was giving you the information to illustrate the opt out option which you wrongly assumed was not possible.
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LOL. The world and his wife have known ever since Charlie McCreevy introduced the rent a room scheme the guts of a quarter of a century ago that it's eminently possible to opt out of the rent a room scheme, or more precisely to disqualify oneself from it if one's income from letting out a room or rooms to a lodger or lodgers exceeds the applicable limit.
ThisisMax said:
If you want to opt out yearly from the rent a room scheme you can opt out with Revenue but remember you then have to issue a lease and RTB reg etc.....
Click to expand...
The piece I've highlighted here is, as I've said above, totally untrue.

ThisisMax said:
(if continuing to rent as a regular landlord
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This makes no sense. A regular landlord does not occupy as their home a property they have let out to others. Unless they do that, they have no business claiming the rent a room exemption in the first place.
 
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T McGibney said:
LOL. The world and his wife have known ever since Charlie McCreevy introduced the rent a room scheme the guts of a quarter of a century ago that it's eminently possible to opt out of the rent a room scheme, or more precisely to disqualify oneself from it if one's income from letting out a room or rooms to a lodger or lodgers exceeds the applicable limit. So whats your problem then? Up thread you said 'The nature of the accommodation doesn't change just because the rent-a-room exemption has been lost' but it does - you can elect to be a regular landlord if its an attached unit OR you can decide not to rent a room at all. So the nature of the accomodation does change depending on your choice.

The piece I've highlighted here is, as I've said above, totally untrue. No its not. If you have a stand alone unit ( which was the example the poster and I used- did you not read that bit?) then you can do rent a room or regular landlord, one requires a lease and RTB the other not. Thats pretty clear but I think you skimmed the thread/ are bored/ need a meal/ are a reflexive contrarian.


This makes no sense. A regular landlord does not occupy as their home a property they have let out to others. Unless they do that, they have no business claiming the rent a room exemption in the first place. Makes no sense to who? You? Read above and hopefully the rusty penny will drop
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Every point I made undermined your argument and now you create a new one. I never said a license does not automatically change into a tenancy just because the rent a room income limit is exceeded - you made that up.

Best of luck.
 
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