Religion in Schools

[Purple]

Yesterday was the 97th anniversary of the day the first Dail declared independence from Britain. It was out Independence Day. The fear of the Protestant minority in Northern Ireland was, as it has been during the debate around the Home Rule Bill, that the Catholic Church would dominate the country (Home Rule is Rome Rule). How right they were.
Now, nearly 100 years later, when only 14% of people go to Church each week, the Catholic Church still runs and controls 97% of our state Primary Schools. Even when our inferior, second class, non Catholic children get in they are subjected to at least 30 minutes of indoctrination per day of a misogynistic, intolerant belief system based on 3000 year old tribal writings which flies in the face of not only our pluralistic society but the hope that we can help our children develop logical and critical minds, capable of rational and calm deliberation and logical assessment of what will confront them in later life.
The New York Times today highlights the human impact of our 1930's educational structures.

 

[Thirsty]

The gas thing is that in several english speaking countries church run schools are seen as the holy grail if you can get your child in / afford the fees. I know of parents who have 'converted' (from another christian religion) to get their children in to what was considered a 'good' school.

Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[cremeegg]

I think you overstate it when you say

Even when our inferior, second class, non Catholic children get in they are subjected to at least 30 minutes of indoctrination per day

However I certainly believe that all children should receive the same secular education. No Catholic schools, no Protestant schools and no Muslim schools. If parents want their children to have a religious education in addition, I dont believe that they should be stopped, but I dont the state should support that.

the Catholic Church still runs and controls 97% of our state Primary Schools.

Most of the other primary schools are Educate Together schools, these are also run on religious lines, they are multi denominational not non-denominational, as many people seem to think.

Second level schools that used to be owned by religious orders, have mostly been passed over to educational trusts. The largest CEIST, which owns more than 300 secondary schools has Ronan Mullen among its trustees. Now Ronan is a nice lad and a decent person, but he is VERY religious.

I think that the religious groups make organised efforts to have influence in VEC schools also. My local VEC sends kids on retreat to Foundation in Christ Ministries. To my mind these are extreme religious fundamentalists. Why does a VEC school do this ?

 

[Purple]

Religious education must comprise at least 30 minutes of each school day. In Catholic primary schools that's Catholic religious education. 97% of primary schools are Catholic

 

[Delboy]

Even when our inferior, second class, non Catholic children get in they are subjected to at least 30 minutes of indoctrination per day....

When I went to school, non-catholic kids left the room and went to the Assembly hall or similar for the duration of religion class. I hadn't heard anything to say that has changed

 

[Purple]

When I went to school, non-catholic kids left the room and went to the Assembly hall or similar for the duration of religion class. I hadn't heard anything to say that has changed

In primary school?

 

[Delboy]

Both if I recall correctly

 

[PatrickJ]

Yep, I remember the non-Catholics having to leave the room and then be inundated with extra maths or whatnot because they didn't participate. Not a million years ago either.

 

[Leper]

We have had schools run by religious orders for years. It has been a successful bond between the people and the church. It ain't broken, so don't fix it. I have no problem with the current situation. Those who do not want religion in schools have the choice not to send their children to a religious one. Find another school, but then you will have to pay travel fees, drive further to deliver/collect etc. Please desist from running everybody else's life and try and run your own.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Purple a well balanced NYT article and a counter to our newly donned mantle as the champion of secular enlightenment. Everyone from James Reilly to Diarmuid Martin accepts that we have an issue here. What really cheeses me off is this Dev constitution. Apparently it would need a referendum to rectify matters. From failing to endorse totally sensible EU reform twice to taking (how many times) to get a limited divorce facility to one botch after another on the abortion thing the 1930s constitution is simply not fit for purpose.

That said I wouldn't be like you wish for an entirely secular state educational system. That was tried in the Soviet Union with not particularly happy outcomes. 84% of Irish profess themselves to be RC at census and I guess a majority of these want a catholic "ethos" in their schools. We gotta be practical here. Morning prayers is not a wicked institution. Maybe one of the boys is an Indian Hindu (as in the NYT article) but I think it being overly politically correct to then dispense with morning prayers for the rest and of course providing him with his own prayers or letting him leave the class has its own issues. When he asks his dad "why do I look different from the other boys and why do I not believe in their prayers?" his dad can reply "son, for every one of those paddys there are 300 of you in this world"

 

[cremeegg]

We have had schools run by religious orders for years. It has been a successful bond between the people and the church. It ain't broken, so don't fix it. I have no problem with the current situation. Those who do not want religion in schools have the choice not to send their children to a religious one. Find another school, but then you will have to pay travel fees, drive further to deliver/collect etc. Please desist from running everybody else's life and try and run your own.

You may have no problem with the current situation, but I do.

I cannot get a non-religious education for my children.

As a citizen and as taxpayer this is completely unfair.

You can run your life anyway you wish but not at my expense, I don't want to pay for the religious aspect of your child's education. I wouldn't object too much if I could at least get a non-religious education for my child.

 

[Thirsty]

I cannot get a non-religious education for my children.

But you can get an education (and an reasonably good one at that). Whilst I can see the argument a bit of me is harrumphing 'first world problems'...

I'm a confirmed atheist, raised my children as atheists. They attended an Educate Together school in primary and a very decided Church school (service in chapel every morning before class) in Secondary. Thankfully I had no religious decisions to make in regards to Third level

They took Religious Education to Junior Cert as it was part of the curriculum and hilariously got A grades! They were not 'confused' or 'brainwashed' or any such thing. They are still firmly atheist, but interestingly have more knowledge and understanding of religion than many of their peers who were raised in and attended the various ceremonies as children.

Personally I think the Educate Together model is the way to go; in any event the demographics of our ageing priesthood and falling church attendance will soon put paid to church management of schools.

 

[mathepac]

Surely the owners / patrons / boards of management of primary schools have the right to determine the ethos of their schools - religious, nondenominational, language specific or whatever? Isn't whinging about any other arrangement like knocking on the door of a biscuit factory and insisting that they supply your children with pork chops?

 

[Leper]

You may have no problem with the current situation, but I do.

I cannot get a non-religious education for my children.

As a citizen and as taxpayer this is completely unfair.

You can run your life anyway you wish but not at my expense, I don't want to pay for the religious aspect of your child's education. I wouldn't object too much if I could at least get a non-religious education for my child.

1. You are not pressganged into sending your children to religious run schools.
2. We all pay taxes, not just for what we want to pay taxes, the religious orders as far as education is concerned owe the country little or nothing.
3. Nobody has a choice to say how every cent of their hard earned PAYE is distributed.
4. Our local primary school does not force any child to attend the religion class; they ask the parents to collect the child beforehand. Guess what? The parents do not collect the children. I wonder why!
5. Take the religious run schools out of Ireland and have a look at what will be left.

 

[cremeegg]

Surely the owners / patrons / boards of management of primary schools have the right to determine the ethos of their schools - religious, nondenominational, language specific or whatever?

They do, legally and practically have that right.

However as the state pays the wages of their teachers, I think that the state should ensure that there is open enrolment, i.e. all children irrespective of religion have an equal opportunity to attend.

 

[cremeegg]

1. You are not pressganged into sending your children to religious run schools.

Thats untrue for the vast majority of people in Ireland and you know it. Come on Leper, if we are going to debate this don't say things you know to be unreasonable.

There are only 3 primary schools in my nearest town which are not run by the Catholic Church, two Educate Together schools, which as I have pointed out above is multi-denominational, and not as is commonly believed non-religious. The third school is run by the Seventh Day Adventists.

2. We all pay taxes, not just for what we want to pay taxes,

Fair point

the religious orders as far as education is concerned owe the country little or nothing.

Well what about the share of compensation they agreed to pay to victims of sexual abuse in the religious schools. For a start.

3. Nobody has a choice to say how every cent of their hard earned PAYE is distributed.

As above that a fair point, though there is a little more to it.

4. Our local primary school does not force any child to attend the religion class; they ask the parents to collect the child beforehand. Guess what? The parents do not collect the children. I wonder why!

Because they are to busy working to personally make up for the inadequacies of the school perhaps? You know that too.

5. Take the religious run schools out of Ireland and have a look at what will be left.

Well if we don't replace them we will be left with almost no education system such is they grip the religious have,

 

[cremeegg]

But you can get an education (and an reasonably good one at that). Whilst I can see the argument a bit of me is harrumphing 'first world problems'...

A lot of the Third World's problems arise from an excess of religion

 

[Purple]

That said I wouldn't be like you wish for an entirely secular state educational system. That was tried in the Soviet Union with not particularly happy outcomes.

That's what they have in the USA, a country with far higher levels of religious engagement than Ireland, and it works out fine for them.
This is meant to be a republic. People are meant to be equal.

 

[Purple]

We have had schools run by religious orders for years. It has been a successful bond between the people and the church. It ain't broken, so don't fix it.

Many would disagree on the assertion that bond between Church and State is successful. The government and the Church both think that the current situation should change. I agree with them although I think that the situation should change completely.

Those who do not want religion in schools have the choice not to send their children to a religious one. Find another school, but then you will have to pay travel fees, drive further to deliver/collect etc.

In practice that’s not an option for most parents. They fund the state through their taxes just like everyone else and so their children should have the same access to education as everyone else.

We should also think of the teachers who have no religious beliefs who have to lie about it to get a job and then go through the charade of bringing classes through communion and confirmation.

Please desist from running everybody else's life and try and run your own.

This is a discussion on a discussion forum. Nothing more.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

That's what they have in the USA, a country with far higher levels of religious engagement than Ireland, and it works out fine for them.
This is meant to be a republic. People are meant to be equal.

Yes indeed Wiki asserts this to be the case but it also states that the UK gives heavy state support to Catholic, CoE and Jewish schools and they are a fairly enlighened bunch.

The Government should forthwith ban practices that discriminate against access to schools. Who is going to mount the constitutional challenge? Not the RC schurch it seems.

But reading your OP you seem as incensed by a catholic ethos being promulgated in church run schools as you are with discriminatory access. IMHO the (vast) majority of Irish people do not agree with you on this point and the state has no role in subverting that poular wish. Before anybody asserts that the state has that right coz it pays the teachers' salaries, that is not relevant, the state merely channels the taxes of the people, the people have rights on how those taxes are spent. It would be profoundly undemocratic if the state were to use its intermediary role in funding education to insist on practices which the majority of the population are against.

However, possibly your criticism is primarily of Ireland's catholic majority attitude even in its newly liberated guise and only in a secondary sense of its chosen institutions (church or state).