Relevance of unions in the modern world

[shipibo]

Re: Can employer insist employees pose for photos for website

On issue of American companies not recognising Unions, HP had this policy , but as part of moving into BoI IT section, had to change this.

The state recognises Unions, and if you have been mistreated by an employer, Unions will represent you, and bring cases to Labour Relations Commision / Labour Court.

On the issue of downturn in Union Membership, I believe:

1. There is a concerted campaign in O,Reilly media to ridicule/ demonize Unions.Constantly quoting public service Union grievances, stating we all have to pay for their demands, this is true, but does not give even view.

2. Unions went into Partnership deal with Govt. , this limited the scope for Unions to negotiate, making part of their role irrevelant.

3. Unions have not kept up with pace of change in society, have not adapted to modern mediums to advertise / market their services.


As a SIPTU Union rep, I would be interested in ALL comments on this subject.

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Can employer insist employees pose for photos for website

This query was originally posted by Crumdub on this thread.

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Can employer insist employees pose for photos for website

The state recognises Unions, and if you have been mistreated by an employer, Unions will represent you, and bring cases to Labour Relations Commision / Labour Court.

But there is no onus on employers to recognise unions as representing workers as pointed out by .

1. There is a concerted campaign in O,Reilly media to ridicule/ demonize Unions.Constantly quoting public service Union grievances, stating we all have to pay for their demands, this is true, but does not give even view.

Can you provide some evidence in support of this assertion please?

2. Unions went into Partnership deal with Govt. , this limited the scope for Unions to negotiate, making part of their role irrevelant.

Why would this contribute to a downturn in union membership?

3. Unions have not kept up with pace of change in society, have not adapted to modern mediums to advertise / market their services.

Can you expand on this point a bit more please?

For the record I have never worked in unionised employment as a software engineer and have no strong views one way or another on the issue of union membership. The one time I did have cause to communicate with the unions (over the takeover of an indigenous Irish software development company by a US multinational and the implications for employees and contracts of employment etc.) the ones that I phoned up looking for guidance and advice simply didn't want to know.

 

[Imperator]

The answer below is based on my own experience.

I have worked in both unionised and non unionised factories, (by the way, there are some organisations who own a number of factories, some unionised, others with no unions, all in Ireland).

In general they were US multinationals, and in my opinion generally treated employees fairly and paid them well, and made sure they had a safe environment. The unionised sites did not operate as efficiently, both in terms of making long term plans, and in the day to day operations of the plant. Relations were generally more inclined towards an "us and them" mindset. I know that the unionised sites for two of the companies are seen as problem sites by their head offices, and that further expansion/investment will go to other areas.

The union members on the ground have not changed their mindset since the days when workers were pretty much abused at factory owners whims. There is no flexibility in the performance of tasks, and every request is a problem. I once went to dinner with a very prominent member of the Australian Labour Party, who had lectured all over the world to Union conferences (he was a Union Member). He made the simple point that the success stories for unionised entities began when the unions started asking the question "How does this action impact on the company now and in the future?" That is an approach which in various sectors has not been undertaken. I have met skilled workers who would rather see an organisation go under than surrender an inflated demand, whether pay or otherwise related.

This is an issue which impacts the public sector on a large scale "give us benchmarking but don't raise taxes".

The original poster made the point that membership of unions is down; some ArchBishop or othermade the point in the last few weeks that participation in society in general is down, which is seen in union, church, and political sectors seeing a loss of membership. This is not down to the Indo demonising unions, this is reflective of something deeper in society in general.

Sorry if this post is not altogether coherent, I'm basically just jotting down thoughts.

 

[shipibo]

Just to start off, I am a Union Rep, but not detached from reality. I work for a multi national , and have been involved in the IT sector for 10+ years, Union came with the job !!!

As for questions from Clubman :

I know employer is under no obligation to recognise Union, or Indeed LRC or Labour Court recomendations, but this does not mean an employee that works in such a company cannot join a Union , and be represented at these mediums.

As for specifics on Indo etc ... , there is a general undertone that shows Union movement in negative light, generally public sector.Unions have contributed to bringing businesses thru some sticky patches (2000-2003) by engaging in sensible negotiations, but this is not brought to attention to people.

PESP Gov. / Union partnership is across the board pay raises, that suit some , and not others , Unions pre 1990s negotiated pay raises for different sectors, as they are now in partnership agreement, this is difficult .

As for Union stagnancy, there are no big pushes to boost membership, a difficulty in recognising the shift from Manufacturing to high tech, and the different issues that face employees in 2000+.

As for lethargy among Unions Staff , this is unfortunate, Unions are normally only contacted when people are in trouble, and sometimes their response is less than adequate, part of my Union marketing Image problem , people are more inclined to talk about bad service , than good.


maybe legislations has negated the need for Unions, or as Imperator wrote, maybe the change in society has meant that Unions are fading away ...

 

[Sherman]

If unions, particularly public sector unions, have an image problem, it is far more their own doing than any dastardly plan of certain media organisations.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking DART drivers looking for €20k a head due to 'longer trains'; ESB workers refusing to move out of a redundant power station until they are effectively bought off; baggage handlers in Dublin Airport; Gardai suffering 'blue flu' en masse; civil servants bleating about benchmarking etc. etc.

Of course, these groups can threaten strike etc. the second their outmoded work practices are threatened, due to the simple fact that they are negotiating with other civil servants - neither side faces job losses, or for that matter is troubled by the need to make profits!

IMO the vast majority of union-related image problems stem from the public sector. I recently spoke with a senior member of the labour relations commission and he said the public sector unions would make you want to tear your hair out they're so unrealistic and anachronistic. The unions in general have become fat from direct debit membership dues and full employment during the celtic tiger. When they are truly needed (and I do believe unions are still needed) as in the Gama case, they are at best very slow to step up and fight for the weakest of their members.

If they are losing members, perhaps it is partly due to younger workers not wanting to get involved in the same old 1970's pettiness and negativity?

 

[ClubMan]

As for specifics on Indo etc ... , there is a general undertone that shows Union movement in negative light, generally public sector.

Can you give some specific examples that support this assertion of a general undertone of portraying the unions in a negative light perhaps?

PESP Gov. / Union partnership is across the board pay raises, that suit some , and not others , Unions pre 1990s negotiated pay raises for different sectors, as they are now in partnership agreement, this is difficult

I have never worked in unionised employment (bar a brief college stint in Bord Fáilte in 1985 which was presumably unionised but I was never approached about membership) and have never received nationally agreed pay increases.

As for lethargy among Unions Staff , this is unfortunate, Unions are normally only contacted when people are in trouble, and sometimes their response is less than adequate, part of my Union marketing Image problem , people are more inclined to talk about bad service , than good.

My father was a bricklayer and only ever had bad stories about his union particularly when they refused to represent him on an issue of pay and conditions. Another anecdotal experience but one that always sticks with me and probably colours my view of unions in general.

 

[shipibo]

Sherman,

I think you hit the nail on the head, All work relation issues you state are true, and I find them very insular and to the detriment of the economy, never mind Unions.

How do Unions address this, if they tell their workforce (customers) to be realistic after years of cloud cuckoo , the response will not be good.

Unfortunately, Unions are not the only ones bleeding the Country, Politicians on all levels are getting pay raise after pay raise, they are not linked to productivity, Economy performance, cost savings etc...

The GAMA situation was not dealt with well, I believe a lot of intimidation was used against Turkish workers, and without overly defending SIPTU, they were dealing with agressive employers.Our politicians did not take this issue seriously, to the point of making racist comments about workers, and as a society should ask why we did not look for his resignation.


Clubman,

When was the last time you read a truly positive story relating to Unions ??? , this crosses two points I made earlier, The Indo point , and the Union marketing point .... , How many Unions have press officers that contact the media with positive stories.... I am not saying Unions are being persecuted , there is a lot of arrogance in them, the original question was , can they change , and if they do, can they grow .

 

[ClubMan]

The GAMA situation was not dealt with well, I believe a lot of intimidation was used against Turkish workers, and without overly defending SIPTU, they were dealing with agressive employers.Our politicians did not take this issue seriously, to the point of making racist comments about workers, and as a society should ask why we did not look for his resignation.

Joe Higgins did and he's one of our elected TDs. There was a long discussion here on AAM at the time about Conor Lenihan's "stick to the kebabs" comment during which I expressed the opinion that these seemed to be a case of stupidity rather than racism. However I guess we should keep discussion of this specific issue to that thread if necessary.

When was the last time you read a truly positive story relating to Unions ??? , this crosses two points I made earlier, The Indo point , and the Union marketing point .... , How many Unions have press officers that contact the media with positive stories.... I am not saying Unions are being persecuted , there is a lot of arrogance in them, the original question was , can they change , and if they do, can they grow .

That is not the issue. The issue is that you have accused the the Indo and, it seems, the wider "O'Reilly media", of engaging in a deliberate campaign of, if not persecution then "ridicule/demonisation" (your words) but you have yet to provide some evidence that this is actually the case. I think that it's fair enough for people who make fairly serious claims to be challenged to provide some supporting evidence.

 

[shipibo]

Evidence ??? , what kind of evidence do you expect .... a reporter stating he reported a story incorrectly to favour one side or another.

I made that statement, and I believe it is correct. If your point is they are even handed, and I am wrong, that is your opinion, and let it rest.

The point of the thread was to get constructive critisism on the Union movement in general.

 

[Purple]

In my opinion unions in Ireland mainly represent the public sector and as such are the reserve of the middle classes. As was pointed out above they looked for and got benchmarking on the basis that it would not be paid for by increases in direct taxation. The unions were well aware at the time that this would mean increases in indirect taxation i.e. bin charges, water charges etc. These indirect taxes hit poor people hardest. Again the unions were will aware that this would be the case but didn't care. So what we had/have is a union policy adopted by government (thanks to social partnership) that redistributes wealth upwards. For that reason (above all the many others) I have no time for unions.

 

[shipibo]

Purple,

On issue of class, don,t think Unions are reserve of any class, public sector workers fill a broad sector of roles, and come from different educational backgrounds.

PESP Issue, Govt. asked Unions to get involved, PESP also includes IBEC (Employers Union) and trashed structures that would control wages over the medium term.

The fact that govt. have taxed people to pay workers they employ to run state is undeniable, how Unions can be blamed for this , I don,t know.....
as for Taxing the poor , to subsidise rich , maybe look at housing prices artifically inflated, VRT, Cost of living etc....

They are implemented by Govt. , and don,t see any opposition parties tellin, me they will get rid / reduce them.. You seriously can,t blame Unions for this.

My company is part of PESP , I work in private sector.It means they could cost the last four years for business planning , as people are highest cost to my company (70+%).

 

[Purple]

Hi crumdub12,

Unions were set up to stop exploitation of employees by an employer that is why they should be looking out for those at the bottom of the ladder. During the PESP negotiations it was the unions and not IBEC that pushed for benchmarking. They bleat on about representing the poor and the underprivileged but were happy to screw them to look after their public sector constituent. They can be blamed for it because it is what they asked for and what they got.
I don’t get your point about house prices being artificially inflated. Who is inflating them? The market decides what the price is, all stamp duty and VAT do is decide what proportion of that price goes to the exchequer. Stamp duty goes up as a proportion of cost the more you pay for the house, I don’t see that as the poor paying for the rich. The same goes for VRT, the bigger the engine (and so usually the higher the price) the more you pay. I don’t see this as the poor paying for the rich either.

All I see from unions is the same old rhetoric that ignores the common good for the benefit of the few. As our economy becomes more and more exposed to international markets there is less and less union membership in the private sector because people know that unions close businesses down. That is why the public sector is their main constituent since it doesn’t operate in the real world. It doesn’t matter what the unions do, their members in the public sector will never loose their jobs due to inefficiency.

With Blue Flue, Prison officers disputes, Dart drivers disputes, teachers strikes, nurses strikes, train drivers strikes, ESB disputes etc, etc, etc all in the public sector, all with totally secure jobs, none operating in a competitive environment. I really can’t see how anyone can have any time for unions.

The only time in the last 15 or so years that unions could have really done some good was in the case of the Gamma workers and they failed utterly and completely. They are, for the most part, part of the public service establishment and can no longer help those who need their help the most.

 

[shipibo]

Purple,


Unions are mandated to negotiate the best deal possible for their members, just are companies responsibilities are to their share holders.
Of course they negotiated benchmarking, but you seem to ignore the govt. and IBEC were in same negotiations.f they thought it was a show stopper, they could have concluded negotiations, but they agreed , and thats life.

I agree there should be competition introduced in the public sector,and that Unions need to focus on the global market, but the statement Unions lose Jobs is a bit strong, If it gets to a stage where employer states business is in jeopardy, Labour Courts will appoint a mediator to audit claims and give a ruling.

I work in a multinational , and we are highly sensitive to emerging markets, and high costs associated with doing business in Ireland, but these are issues that need to be looked at by govt. , Unions cannot negotiate peoples wages down , because our Govt. have lost control of our economy.

 

[Purple]

Crumdub12,

I agree that the government to ultimately responsible for the mess we are now in (relative to where we should be).
I would contend that we have a weak government that is unduly influenced by strong public sector unions. Again, this is not the fault of the unions who are just doing their job but they sell themselves as an advocacy group for the general public when they are in fact just another self-serving pressure group, just like IBEC or SIMI.
The problem then is that the private sector has to foot the bill and with the increases in their cost base due to benchmarking (amongst other things) it is harder and harder to do.
IMHO unions would serve the public good, and their own long-term interests, if they sat down and said, “this country is loosing 100 manufacturing jobs a week, what can we do to stop this as these should be our members”. Many of these jobs will go anyway but many would not and more could be got to replace the ones that do go.

The government should be doing the same thing but I can’t see Bertie doing anything without the nod from SIPTU and I see no evidence that any alternative government would be any different.

 

[shipibo]

Purple,



Can,t say I disagree with any of your points, did not mean to start a debate about Unions, and become the Unions defence, seems that the Union movement in general needs to re evaluate its strategy into the future, or become marginalised.

 

[Purple]

To be fair to you crubdub12, I think it was me that hitched by hobbyhorse to this wagon and took it off on a tangent.

 

[RainyDay]

I agree that the government to ultimately responsible for the mess we are now in (relative to where we should be).

But then again, if you really want to look for 'root cause', shouldn't you blame the damn voters who voted for the Govt in the first place?

To get back to the original question, I have a family member who works as a full-time union official. She spends most of her time dealing with individual issues - bullying, cases brought to tribunals etc - rather than dealing with strikes, or broad negotiations. She also says that dealing with the empoyers is easy-peasy, it's the union members that are the difficult ones.

 

[stuart]

She spends most of her time dealing with individual issues - bullying, cases brought to tribunals etc - rather than dealing with strikes

These issues especially including health and safety should be the main concerns of unions in a "modern" society

The threat to employees is not the same as it was fifty years ago

Negotiating pay deals nationaly or for 25% of the natioanl workforce (public sector) for unmeasurable prodcutivity increases is ridiculous

I worked in the tax office (and didn't join any union) and many people I worked with were very good at their job
Many others could not give a hoot and came and went as they saw fit, not to mention the unemployable that just lurked around when not on sick leave

There are a number of deaths each year in the construction industry which is unacceptable
There are numerous cases of descrimination and racism

These issues should be taken up by unions but as these are minority cases and not union fees winners, they are ignored

I personally do not see the point in unions if they are not going to fight these battles

A civil servant receiving around 38 days annual leave (after accounting for flextime), being able to start early/late and leave early/late, a free parking space in the city centre, a generous pension and little to no prospect of getting sacked is not exactly the downtrodden requiring assisstance of Jim Larkin


(I nearly posted this as a link to "Big Jim" (it was the players position that confused me))

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00002976

 

[Purple]

But then again, if you really want to look for 'root cause', shouldn't you blame the damn voters who voted for the Govt in the first place?

I agree rainyday, but I honestly don't see the alternative as being any better and fear that it would be quite a bit worse. For me this is the least worst option. I find that really depressing.

Stuart, I agree on every point.