Regulation and inspection

[Purple]

Over the last few years and decades we have seen scandal after scandal come to light.
There has been tax evasion, bribery of politicians and public officials, child sex abuse, corruption by the Gardai, abuse of foreign workers, the mistreatment of old people in nursing homes the by far the most serious; the hepatitis scandal.
In every case there was and is legislation in place to prevent these things happening.
There were structures within the Garda, the health boards and the relevant government departments and statutory bodies (health, revenue, social services, health boards, trade and enterprise etc) that were charged with regulating and enforcing the laws of the land.
In every case they have failed abysmally.
It is too easy to blame the politicians who pass through the public and civil services like transient overseers. The professionals that we the public pay to look after the running of out country have shown themselves to be unable to do the job that they are paid to do.
I do not think that this is due to incompetence, corruption or laziness on the part of those involved. I think the problem is deeper than that.
The public service in this country is run on what could be described as the French social(ist) model. Everyone works in a well regulated environment cosseted from the outside world by a layer of unionised governmental cotton wool. Just like the French.
What makes us different as a country is that the permanent government of the country (the civil service) knows that these rules can only be applied to them if there is a lean free market Anglo-American style private sector to pay for it all. This detachment from the “real world” of competition and free market economics by the public sector means the private sector is too alien, lean and fast moving for them to really understand or regulate.
That bit doesn’t surprise me. The fact that they can’t enforce regulation within their own idealistic world does surprise me a bit.

The only exception to this is the office of the Revenue Commissioner where natural justice goes out the window and the more incompetent they are and the longer it takes them to do their job the more money they can gather.

Who went to prison in the Blood Board over the hepatitis scandal?
Who in the relevant department of health off shoot will be sacked over lack of inspection in the latest nursing home abuses?
How many Gardai will go to prison for framing two men for murder?
Who was in charge of looking out for children in care for the last 40 years?

<two items of possible defamation have been removed here for consideration by the moderators, ajapale> fair enough, I was on a roll

The list goes on…

 

[redbhoy]

Sure we've never had it so good???

 

[RainyDay]

I think there's a bit a contradiction here, where you slate most regulators for not acting but also slate the one regulator who has acted. And we see the frequent whinges on this site when the Gardai attempt to enforce speeding laws for example.

We need to decide as a society if we actually want to accept the rule of law. I get the feeling that I'm in the minority in wanting this.

 

[Purple]

Hi Rainy,
I don't see the contradiction in saying that it is wrong that Revenue is rewarded by being slow to act. Justice delayed is justice denied and all that.

We need to decide as a society if we actually want to accept the rule of law.

I agree with you completely. My point it that the organs of the state have shown themselves to be consistently and chronically incapable of enforcing laws and regulation, particularly where they regulate the private sector.

 

[Conan]

So despite the failures of the Depts of Justice, Health, Finance, Transport etc, the individuals who are responsible will still get Benchmarking some 3 times the rate of inflation. And it seems one one is ever responsible for the failures (Donegal Gardai, Nursing Homes etc)
To make it worse, retired colleagues also get the equivalent uplift in their pensions.

 

[Purple]

So despite the failures of the Depts of Justice, Health, Finance, Transport etc, the individuals who are responsible will still get Benchmarking some 3 times the rate of inflation. And it seems one one is ever responsible for the failures (Donegal Gardai, Nursing Homes etc)
To make it worse, retired colleagues also get the equivalent uplift in their pensions.

That's it in a nutshell Conan

 

[daltonr]

And we see the frequent whinges on this site when the Gardai attempt to enforce speeding laws for example.

You'd see a lot less whinging if there wasn't such a double standard. If the Gardai obeyed the rules of the road. Unlike the Gardai who Tailgated me for a few miles coming out of Kilkenny last night and when I didn't speed up (if I had I'd probably have been done for speeding) he overtook me and proceeded to tailgate the car in front of me, over taking them and speeding off at about 100mph.

If this car was on the way to an emergency there was no reason to spend miles on the bumper of two cars.

Or the car in College Green today that stoped when the lights went orange and then on realising that they were Gardai drove off when the lights went Orange.

If the gardai obeyed they Rule Of Law, we wouldn't have instances like these right up to the more serious end of the spectrum in Donegal. Then you wouldn't get people whinging on here about Garda Speed checks.

Don't try to defend the indefensible. There's a double standard running right through the heart of Ireland and it poisons the entire society. It is practiced by Gardai, Politicians, Civil Servants etc. etc.

And how do we reward it? Benchmarking that the rest of us idiots have no choice but to pay. It's not like we can elect someone who'll throw benchmarking in the Bin it deserves to be in.

-Rd

 

[Marie]

Purple - This is very interesting and specific to Irish culture and something that has puzzled me for many years. There is such ambivalence in Ireland towards authority and law which seems to follow the rationale of "There should/must be laws; however they don't apply to me/mine - we are the exception". It seems to have roots in a colonial past.

A researcher named Lee Komito has a paper titled Politics and Clientelism in Urban Ireland http://www.ucd.ie/lkomito/thesis1.htm

He writes: Many Irish people are dependent on the state for direct or indirect financial support, and politicians are able to use this dependence to their own advantage in the election process. The state is rarely seen as impartial or impersonal; special contacts and influence are believed to be more relevant than need or qualifications in obtaining state benefits. Voters believe that the assistance of politicians is the best guarantee for receiving state benefits, and surveys show that people remember this when voting (Sinnott 1978:46-47, 61-62). Election rhetoric revolves around special influence and past favors as politicians compete to help the voters. The stereotype of Irish politics -- the personal exchange between politician and voter in which the politician uses his influence to obtain state benefits for the constituent, and the constituent provides electoral support in return -- is a justly deserved one. Politicians are thought to spend much of their time using their actual (or reputed) influence over the allocation of state benefits to build up personal followings.
Similar political patterns have been observed in Africa, Asia, South America, and the circum-Mediterranean (see Powell 1977:149; Eisenstadt and Roniger 1984). In these countries, linkages between citizens and elites are found which exhibit common characteristics: they are voluntary, they are between people of unequal socio-economic status, they are personal and face-to-face, and they persist over time (for a sample of various definitions, see Powell 1977:147-148; Clapham 1982:4-7; Scott 1977:125-128; and Graziano 1975:5-7). Pitt-Rivers' (1961:140) characterization of them as "lop-sided friendships" evokes a mixture of economic transaction and moral value which seems to separate such relations from simple economic domination and exploitation on one hand, and egalitarian aspirations of reciprocity on the other. to be informal, voluntary, asymetrical, and dyadic. The links are vital for citizens, as it is only through these links that they obtain scarce resources controlled by the state. Citizens obtain access to resources and support those who provide the access in return. This pattern of political activity has been termed "political clientelism", and it provides a model of politics throughout the world.

Ireland seems, on first glance, to fit into such a model

 

[daltonr]

It's probably true that voters think you need a politicians help to get anything done. But that might actually be true, and fostered by the politicians. I asked a TD in passing once for the name of who I should talk to with regard to renovating a Thatched Cottage.

I didn't want any favours, I presumed the state would be interested in preserving things like Thatched Cottages, but I wanted to be sure I went about it in the right way. The TD kindly obliged with a name and phone number. But mentioned that if I had any trouble with the project, to let him know and he'd help me out with a letter.

My feeling is that if I had a problem I'd prefer him to intervene by fixing the system so he didn't have to intervene in future. But to him it was completely normal to supply an endless stream of letters.

And it worked. The guy topped the polls for years. Did you ever feel like you get the government that everyone else deserves?

-Rd

 

[Grumpy]

The list of useless and impotent Regulation and inspection bodies is legion in this republic.
How would any intelligent, corrupt political party preserve a favourable climate to do business for its friends and supporters, deal with a publin outcry for action to enforce standards and laws and have an alibi when scandals are exposed?
Why, have a regulatory body!
e.g. The body to regulate competition.
Its got a loud bark and high public profile.Perfect!
Its starved of funds and inundated with work so ends up being largely toothless.A problem?Definitely not!Just perfect for the job.

 

[Purple]

Its starved of funds and inundated with work so ends up being largely toothless

I don't accept that funding is the major issue here, it may be a problem in some isolated cases but it shouldn't distract from the major issue which, in my opinion, is the inability of the public sector to do it's job.
It may well suit politicians in the short term but a well run efficient public sector (an oxymoron?) would be in the interest of all political parties in the long run.
I also believe that politicians are more likely to serve the public interest than their civil service underlings.

 

[daltonr]

>>I don't accept that funding is the major issue here

I don't know if it's THE major issue, but it's certainly A major issue with the current government. I don't know if there has ever been a time in the history of the state when so much money was spent on reports and agencies and committees and so and, and so little spend on funding the reccomendations of the reports, agencies etc.

We get committees to write reports which are reviewed to produce proposals which are reviewed to produce recomendations. We then set up a committee to review the reccomendations and so the circle of life begins again.

Agencies get created and then starved to death.
Anything to avoid actually taking action. It's very much in the Bertie style of government. No movement is at least not movement in the wrong direction.

The history books will show that "Never has so little been achieved by so many with so much".

-Rd

 

[Purple]

In general terms I agree with you daltonr. Reports and committees are put in place to take the heat off an issue. They are a way of being seen to do something without actually doing anything.
One of the down sides of our PR system of democracy is dispersed and weak government since pi**ing off any local interest group could loose you a seat.
That's no excuse for the utter dithering of our current leader. I would agree that this was a major factor, along with the committee, report, action group (another oxymoron) cycle used so much by the current government if the problem of the public sectors inability to do it's job didn't go back so far and encompass so many governments.
In a country where rules can be bent so much and the sort of political clientism that Marie outlined so well seems to apply just as much to the civil and public sector it is hard to see how that public sector can function properly.
The main issue is still lack of any real sanction for those in the public sector who screw up.
Two senior Gardai who were accuse of gross and criminal negligence by a high court judge in a tribunal resigned yesterday with full pensions. Will there be any sanction imposed on these men by those who’s job it is to run our police force?
The Dublin port tunnel had to be modified a number of times at great expense when building had commenced. Who was sacked because of this?
A few years ago a couple of hundred shower units were bought for St. James’s hospital in Dublin with public money but never got there. At what stage is the police investigation into this robbery? Who has been sacked or even suspended?
Irish rail spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions, putting in an optical height sensor to make sure that their carriages weren’t overloaded leaving the station in Waterford. They positioned it outside the station for safety reasons. There is a low bridge between the point where the cargo carriages are loaded and where they are checked, rendering the whole exercise useless. Who had lost their job for this gross stupidity?
I’m sure everyone who visits AAM could add a few to the list.

 

[Grumpy]

I agree, Purple, funding is not the issue.
I happen to pick an unusual example where a real effort was made to do the job.
Pathetically weak leadership, is a major factor...also a moral vacuum and lack of simple patriotism.Party first and last.
I notice that I (and all of you) were blamed, once again, for the latest scandal.i.e. "we" are part of the culture and new what was happening all along.I just checked my job spec and there`s nothing in it about providing good governance to the state and supervision of state agencies!
I`ve gone from never voting for the current bunch to financially supporting an opposition party.
I suspect an effort will be made to buy a section of the electorate during the 12 to 18 months before the next election.Lower level Civil Servants and rural dwellers come to mind.Building up a war chest of ,say, 10 -20 billion will come in handy for this task.

 

[Purple]

Hi Grumpy, I would be happy to support an opposition party if I thought for a moment that they would be any better. The reality is that any alternative government will include the Labour party who are even more in bed with the public sector unions and until their strangle hold over the political process it broken there will be no changes to the way things are done. The public sector unions are just as much of a cancer on the political system in this country now as the Fianna Fail Golden circle was in the of the 70’s and 80’s. They maintain the ultimate system of political clientism where their member’s interests are consistently put ahead of what is in the public interest. Any attempt to modernise the public sector so that it is run in the interests of the state it serves first will be thwarted by the unions at every turn.

I have no problem with self-serving interest groups lobbying the government be they builders, developers, banks or unions (INO, INTO, SUPTU etc). I do have a problem when they attempt to hide their true intentions and pretend to be some sort of altruistic advocacy group that is doing it all for selfless reasons, thus removing their motives from real public scrutiny.