Re: Learner Drivers

[mell61]

Well in addition to more police presence on the roads covering the current legal driving requirements, we need our judges to wake up and smell the coffee... In the past month how many driver have walked away from court without penalty points, because 150kph wasn't 'dangerous driving'.

Basically we're now paying the price for lack of interest in driving skills for the past 20 years, suddenly we're in a bouyant economy with every kid able to buy a car, a testing system that can't provide tests in a timely manner (assuming of course all L drivers are actually applying), a government dithering over how to regulate the current state of chaos, and drivers who know they have a better chance of alien abduction than being caught for breaking the law, and no legal requirement for any instructors to even be trained .

We should introduce a learner permit, no instructor = no driving! No driving on main roads unless as part of your lesson, limit the engine size for the first 1-2 years, automatic blocking of insurance if caught driving without the legally required instructor / qualified driver, automatically retake test if involved in any accident within the first 1-2 years of getting the test.
For driver with current licenses they should also be made to retake their test if found to have committed motoring offences, and as above no license = no driving!

Look at countries like Sweden where they made a bold statement that they want to eliminate deaths on the roads, whereas our own good politicians feel its all working well if we manage to get through a weekend without a death!

 

[michaelm]

sweeping statements like lets put all provo licence holders off the road is complete nonsense, how would the public transport system cope with all these people, how would people who had to move out of the city get to work without cars?

Easy there big fella . I'm not suggesting that provisional licence holders are put off the roads overnight. But removing provisional licence holders from the roads should be the goal, of course the wait for a test would need to be brought down to something reasonable first, maybe 3 or 4 weeks. There is no God given right to drive; only qualified drivers should be allowed to use the roads.

speed restrictions is also rubbsih, if these lads are willing to drive at 100mph plus as it is do you think they will just go "oh i better slow down now they have lowered the limit?" hardly.

Speed restrictions for newly qualified, inexperienced, drivers is an entirely reasonable suggestion.

What about the full licence holder who is driving from dublin to cork on the n8 and gets stuck behind 3 L drivers driving 80kmh, he speeds up and overtakes them, risky? you bet and when a family is wiped out because someone was held up for 20 minutes behind a Learner what are we going to do then.

Not everyone drives on the limit, I often do less than the allowed limit. It's maybe an unlikely and/or dramatic example, try 3 tractors; taking my suggestion they would be R drivers not L's and if they were properly taught then each would leave enough space to the car in front for others to safely pass.

look at the dreadful n6 road from kinnegad to rochford bridge (plenty more like that too) we are going to expect our most inexperienced drivers drive something like that and force them off the dual carriageway, that will really lower deaths alright

Agreed, many roads are terrible. Who want to force inexperienced drivers onto back roads?

5 young lads sadly lost their lives however knee gerk reactions are no what is called for, a more visable garda presence on the roads, they dont need to be doing speed checks, their mere presence makes people think twice. Better roads, and education

On the off chance that you are referring to my previous post as 'knee gerk' I'd clarify that my thoughts on the issue are long held and have nothing to do with the tragic events in Monaghan.

 

[Glenbhoy]

In the past month how many driver have walked away from court without penalty points, because 150kph wasn't 'dangerous driving'.

I doubt if any have - people have not lost their licences for this speed though, and in fairness, on a motorway, chances are this is not dangerous driving.

We should introduce a learner permit, no instructor = no driving! No driving on main roads unless as part of your lesson, limit the engine size for the first 1-2 years, automatic blocking of insurance if caught driving without the legally required instructor / qualified driver, automatically retake test if involved in any accident within the first 1-2 years of getting the test.
For driver with current licenses they should also be made to retake their test if found to have committed motoring offences, and as above no license = no driving!

Agree completely.
But as ubiquitous said, we can't blame politicians for all our road deaths, people must take responsibility for their actions too.

 

[mell61]

I've cut and pasted the article below from Unison (copyright with them etc...).
So it does appear that some judges don't consider twice the speed limit on a single lane road to be 'dangerous driving'. And unfortunately they are not alone, lots of drivers have the same attitude... after all they have complete control of their cars!

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Arial]Second speed fine scandal[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Gay Byrne 'utterly horrified' over 198kph racer's €200 penalty

[/FONT]Mell, Reproducting entire articles from unison.ie is in breach of that site's terms and conditions and is also in breach of AAM's Posting Guidelines....aj
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]

[/FONT]

 

[Glenbhoy]

Mell, what I meant to say was that the drivers involved presumably still got penalty points as they were speeding. They did not lose their licences however and given the antics, most people probably feel that they should have.

 

[mell61]

Sorry about that, I missed that on the T&Cs

But from the article on 16-sept there were no penalty points issues, just a fine, so I'd say that it does appear that there seems to be a 'fluid' interpretation of what constitutes dangerous driving.
But lets admit it, if you do more than 20 miles per day on Irish roads, you will easily see 2-3 incidents each day that could so easily result in crashes.
Its easy to point the finger at L drivers, and I have done it myself, but overall we are just completely oblivious to the fact that we all make mistakes, its always the other guy! I've just been in France / Germany for a few days and its a revelation to see good driving... actually overtaking in the 'overtaking' lane, sliding back into the slower lane once you pass the slower vehicle, keeping reasonable distances, not flashing / blowing the horn when a vehicle moves into your lane....
Its amazing just how complacent we are about the bad habit we all exhibit daily.

 

[Joe1234]

I wonder how many of the 17 year olds killed on the roads this previous week were learner drivers

Just for the record, the 5 people killed in Monaghan were between 19 and 27, and only 2 of them were drivers.

 

[delgirl]

No-one is blaming all the accidents on the road on learner drivers. This thread is about learner drivers and that's what we're discussing as they do contribute significantly to accidents and road deaths.

Here's a very interesting article from 2001, which appeared in the Indo (registration may be required), quoting statistics from the NRA:

"Young people were largely responsible in 83pc of fatal accidents in which they are involved, 70pc responsible in serious accidents and 55pc responsible in minor accidents."

"Provisional licence holders are more likely to have an accident that full licence holders."

The NRA published these statistics in 2001, yet absolutely nothing was done about them.

Provisional Licence holders should not be on the road unaccompanied. They should not travel on motorways, unless driving instructor accompanied motorway lessons are introduced and they should not be permitted to drive high-powered or souped-up cars. This is not only for the protection of the general public and other road users, but also for the protection of the young person with misplaced feelings of invincibity.

Times have changed and in more recent years the phenomonen of 'boy racers' has appeared, where young men feel they have to undertake more and more daring stunts to impress their peers and females.

This has progressed from noisy exhausts to burning donuts on the roads and on to the latest craze, which I witnessed last Friday evening at my local petrol station.

Four cars were reving and screeching around the car park at the petrol station and then I saw flames coming out of the rear of one of the vehicles.

The petrol station owner was on the phone to the Guards, fearing that his pumps may well go up in smoke, as I went in to pay for my petrol. When he had finished, I asked him what they were doing. He told me that they had attached flame throwers to the exhausts of their vehicles and this was the latest dangerous craze.

The Guards said they would come as soon as they could, but that the cars would probably be gone by the time they got there. That's the attitude of the local station.

While there's no enforcement and such a lackadaisical attitude from the Gardai, nothing will change and more young people will be killed.

 

[Swallows]

Who is going to police the speed limit on country roads? no one. Something needs to be done about the state of the roads which are shocking. There are no crash barriers which is why so many cars end up in fields. There are a whole range of things that contribute to so many deaths on the roads. Where is Gay Byrne? I dont hear anything about him any more.

 

[blindjustice]

Hasnt anyone noticed that most of these fatal accidents are at weekends usually friday night saturday mornings and saturday nights sunday mornings.
Drink driving and I know this for a fact. Its not about L drivers. They are just the scapegoats.
The bloody traffic corp doesnt work a 24hr shift neither do the community police and BELIEVE IT OR NOT NEITHER DO THE ARMED DETECTIVES. Leaving only a skeleton crew to do all the work during the night. (in some areas without armed assistance)
This crew is whats called the regular unit(work that most guards hate - they get ALL of the workload they even call themselves MULES). They just dont have the manpower on these units. If the traffic unit worked 24hrs too maybe you would see a difference.
The regular units out the country also have to cover areas as large as half counties. (remember most our police stations are part time not 24hr ones).
LEARNER DRIVERS ARE SCAPEGOATS FOR A DIFFERENT PROBLEM - DONT BE FOOLED BY POLITICIANS OR BY TOP GARDAI WHO AFTERALL ARE PROMOTED BY THE DAIL MEANING IF THEY ARE NOT YES MEN THEY WILL NOT FURTHER THEIR CAREERS.

 

[liteweight]

How would Garda enforcement stop five young lads playing chicken at up to 150km/h on an isolated country road?

Not a hope in hell of anyone stopping them! Slightly off topic but I was horrified by what the priest said at the funeral ...we throw ipods etc. etc at our children but don't give them our time... I thought it was a totally inappropriate time to air his views and felt very sorry for the parents who had to sit through a lecture at their child's funeral.

 

[liteweight]

I agree, I too am a learner driver and am sick of the attitude of "fully qualified drivers". What about full licence holders who never sat a test in their life.

Also if you notice that the majority of these road accidents are on country roads which might suggest the poor condition of these roads as well

I take your point about those who never took a test. I forget how many licenses were handed out but I know my sister got one at the time and wasn't pleased. She wanted to take the test and pass but was not allowed to.

Don't get me started on the condition of our roads, both city and country!

 

[gramlab]

Speed, L drivers and young people seems to be the only thing talked about in the media when it comes to road safety.

Bad driving habbits are as much to blame as anything else as these are the root of the problem. When was the last time anybody heard of someone getting pulled for not indicating, faulty lights, incorrect driving on a roundabout, e.t.c

Restricting L drivers to 80kph on roads will only cause more head on collisions. The government needs to have the bottle to bring in major sweeping changes and not worry about the potential vote implications.

 

[ney001]

I think the problem nowadays with learner drivers is that they can afford to buy their car prior to doing their lessons - when I learned to drive I had to learn in my parent's car for a year then they bought me a little mini - about €300 worth which we did up. These learners now have maybe one professional lesson then buy their car because they can afford to. I know my brother's girlfriend did this - she had one lesson from her dad and bought a brand new Saxo - this girl was driving on the roads but couldn't reverse so she could only park in spaces that she could drive straight out of! - My friend in Australia learned to drive recently and they have a system similar to that of pilots etc in that you have to have x amount of driving time under your belt before doing your test - I think it was 120 hours driving time, this seems like a much better idea then letting anyone out on the roads. Another thing that really really annoys me is an upside down or back to front L plate - How in the name of god can you master the rules of the road when you can put a feckin sticker on your car the correct way!

 

[Glenbhoy]

Hasnt anyone noticed that most of these fatal accidents are at weekends usually friday night saturday mornings and saturday nights sunday mornings.
Drink driving and I know this for a fact. Its not about L drivers. They are just the scapegoats.
LEARNER DRIVERS ARE SCAPEGOATS FOR A DIFFERENT PROBLEM - DONT BE FOOLED BY POLITICIANS OR BY TOP GARDAI WHO AFTERALL ARE PROMOTED BY THE DAIL MEANING IF THEY ARE NOT YES MEN THEY WILL NOT FURTHER THEIR CAREERS.

Learner drivers are not the only problem and drink driving is a probably a huge factor in many cases, but the problem with learner drivers is one thing that can be easily tackled, and (I hate to admit it), but I'm in favour of minister cullens plans on this one.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

My friend in Australia learned to drive recently and they have a system similar to that of pilots etc in that you have to have x amount of driving time under your belt before doing your test - I think it was 120 hours driving time, this seems like a much better idea then letting anyone out on the roads. Another thing that really really annoys me is an upside down or back to front L plate - How in the name of god can you master the rules of the road when you can put a feckin sticker on your car the correct way!

that is on the way in here, ok it will make more money for instructors ( i am one) but i think its a good idea. You will have to prove you have x amount of lessons before you can apply, these must be done with a qualified instructor ( that part is also on the way )

speed restriction is ok before you get stuck behins someone who can only do 80km and and or a 100km road, people get frustrated and accidents happen, so nothing gained.

education and people taking their own actions into account before blaming the government for everything,

do the government feed you those pits before you drive ???

do the government make you drive over the speed limit ???

do the government make you use inappropate speeds ???

they do not, but they make it easier for you to do so.......ah sure there are no guards i'll have that extra pint

 

[blinkbelle]

Another thing that really really annoys me is an upside down or back to front L plate - How in the name of god can you master the rules of the road when you can put a feckin sticker on your car the correct way!

Or the little cut out L like how in gods name are you a ment to see that

 

[ney001]

Or the little cut out L like how in gods name are you a ment to see that

I think that's the point - they're too cool to have big obvious L Plates on the car

 

[purplealien]

If everyone in Ireland that has a full licence for more than 5 years were to take their driving test again - half of them would fail!
There should be a law where people have to take a test every three years to make sure everybody is up to scratch.

 

[Seagull]

Newly qualified drivers should of course display R plates and amongst other things be restricted to a 1.2L car and a max. speed of 80K/H for 2 years. All vehicles should be electronically limited to 130K/H.

Which means that I would need to go out and buy another car. We have one family car, which is a 1.4l hatch. That's hardly a racing car.
This is all very nice in theory, but I think a reality check is in order.