Public Service Pay Agreement

[Staples]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

The Govt. do seem intent on pushing reform and reduction in numbers.

Reductions in numbers are relatively easy to achieve if the quality of the service doesn't really matter.

Now that there's been some agreement on the concept of reform, it'll be intersting to see what form the Government believes this should take. Personally, I don't think they have a notion of what they really want in this regard or that they'd recognise real reform if it knocked on the front door of Leinster House.

For my own part, I don't think that public servants have anything to fear from a reform agenda that's driven by the genuine objective of improving public service delivery. However, the inevitable politically-driven ham-fisted approach is likely to just annoy everyone.

 

[VOR]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Now that there's been some agreement on the concept of reform, it'll be intersting to see what form the Government believes this should take.

Will An Bord Snip Nua not be a template? Granted it is not customer-centric but surely it is a start.

 

[Staples]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Will An Bord Snip Nua not be a template? Granted it is not customer-centric but surely it is a start.

This was mostly about cuts to services. It didn't address structural reform.

 

[emaol]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

I was like totally proved wrong.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=128915&page=2

Those at the top retain their Xmas presents whilst those at the bottom might get a couple of quid in a couple of years if they reform their work practices and if the economy doesn't deteriorate futher.

In fact the extension of "retire on full benefits" date further benefits those at the top as they pull up the ladder on the way out.

+1 euthanise the upper echelons!

 

[z107]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

This should stop any strikes until the next budget.
The government as about nine months now to break the unions or outsource and privatise as much as possible.

There will be more public sector wage cuts in the next budget. There has to be or it'll be bankrupt country time.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Now that there's been some agreement on the concept of reform, it'll be intersting to see what form the Government believes this should take. Personally, I don't think they have a notion of what they really want in this regard or that they'd recognise real reform if it knocked on the front door of Leinster House.

Why do you say this?

I think its highly likely that they would have plenty of ideas but in reality they fear that they will simply be rejected by unions.

It is the unions that make reform such a difficult area, not a lack of ideas or political will. Governments have simply learned to deal with the fact that any aspect of reform must be proposed in such a way that it appears to make concessions, or makes concessions, to the unions. This makes it much more complex and slow moving.

If the government hasn't a clue about real reform then who does - the CS/PS themselves? If so, speak up please!

 

[VOR]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

If the government hasn't a clue about real reform then who does - the CS/PS themselves? If so, speak up please!

I have a cunning plan.
The upper echelons of the PS/CS will all take their retirement by the end of 2011 thus reducing the pay bill. That will be the naysayers out of the way.

The government will then host a competition in the PS/CS whereby the best ideas win promotion. There's your meritocracy and reform in one go. No need for expensive reform boards or consultants. Happy days!!!

 

[Sunny]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

It's in everyones interests that a deal was done. We need a functioning public service, not one crippled by industrial action. The Government has said it won't touch pay and conditions if savings are made. It is now to the Unions and their members to deliver those savings. The least they deserve is the opportunity to make them before we start calling it a wasted opportunity. The difference this time compared to previous times is that people outside Ireland are watching. There is no room for fudging issues or gamesmanship. There has be impact on the bottom line of the public finances.
For the sake of everyone, I hope they succeed despite my skepticism that they wont.

 

[Pique318]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the previous benchmarking/2016 pay agreements made on the understanding that improvements in efficiency and reforms to working practices were made ?
What happened to those reforms then ?
Why should we expect this time around to be any better ?

 

[Sunny]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Why should we expect this time around to be any better ?

Because there is no choice. Savings are made or they aren't. If they aren't and the Government do nothing, then we are joining Greece in getting a bailout and the EU/IMF will do it for us.

I have a feeling the unions know this and would prefer trying to work with the Irish Government rather than one of those outside bodies. They really couldn't care less about work to rule or protest marches.

 

[csirl]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Its quite obvious that new entrants will be given yellow pack terms and conditions and the existing left as is. Savings will be achieved as older staff retire and get replaced by yellow packs.

 

[Pique318]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Because there is no choice. Savings are made or they aren't. If they aren't and the Government do nothing, then we are joining Greece in getting a bailout and the EU/IMF will do it for us.

I agree with this ?/\ /\

I have a feeling the unions know this and would prefer trying to work with the Irish Government rather than one of those outside bodies. They really couldn't care less about work to rule or protest marches.

but not with this /\ /\

I wish I had your faith in the intelligence of the Union leadership !

 

[Sunny]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

I wish I had your faith in the intelligence of the Union leadership !

I wish I really believed what I said!

 

[DerKaiser]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

In fact the extension of "retire on full benefits" date further benefits those at the top as they pull up the ladder on the way out.

These will be the same people who'll complain bitterly when the link to salary inflation is broken (not seeing the irony of being spared the salary link during the first period of deflation and wage cuts in recent memory)

 

[Deiseblue]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

This should stop any strikes until the next budget.
The government as about nine months now to break the unions or outsource and privatise as much as possible.

There will be more public sector wage cuts in the next budget. There has to be or it'll be bankrupt country time.

Dear God !

Are you not prepared to give the putative deal a chance ?

If efficiencies/reforms deliver the required savings then what's the problem in part reversing the pay cuts or at worst freezing pay levels.

Is it possible that you merely wish to inflict further pay cuts on PS workers rather than contemplate alternatives ?

As for breaking the unions , don't make me laugh !

 

[Purple]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Dear God !

Are you not prepared to give the putative deal a chance ?

If efficiencies/reforms deliver the required savings then what's the problem in part reversing the pay cuts or at worst freezing pay levels.

Is it possible that you merely wish to inflict further pay cuts on PS workers rather than contemplate alternatives ?

I think experience shows that the PS Unions are able to run rings around the PS management when it comes to reform. The Benchmarking fiasco is a good example of this.

As for breaking the unions , don't make me laugh !

I agree, they are way to powerful to be broken by a mere elected government.

 

[Staples]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Why do you say this?

I think its highly likely that they would have plenty of ideas but in reality they fear that they will simply be rejected by unions.

It is the unions that make reform such a difficult area, not a lack of ideas or political will.

Your faith in the country's elected legislators is clearly stronger than mine!

My perception is that, collectively, the political system has a view that "something must be done". however, I don't believe that ideas for reform go beyond tinkering around the margins or in pursuing certain bones of contention. I don't believe there's a collective understanding of what might be reasonably expected from a efficient public service, taking account of all its many facets, or what it would be required to create it.

 

[cork]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

If efficiencies/reforms deliver the required savings then taget those earning <35000.

But efficiencies/reforms will have to be delivered.

A compromise that will lead to reform - or those lower paid workers wll not get pay levels reversed.

 

[z107]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Dear God !

Are you not prepared to give the putative deal a chance ?

If efficiencies/reforms deliver the required savings then what's the problem in part reversing the pay cuts or at worst freezing pay levels.

Is it possible that you merely wish to inflict further pay cuts on PS workers rather than contemplate alternatives ?

As for breaking the unions , don't make me laugh !

Before today, the goverment stated that it need to make billions of euros worth of savings. 3 or 4 billion per budget for a number of years.
Today we will probably see the near nationalisation of one or more bankrupt banks, and we also hear that Quinn have had the administrators called in. Think about it, it is meltdown time.

You can be sure that any 'reforms' the unions have just won't even come close to the billions of savings that's required.

If we paid the public sector zero - would this even be enough?

 

[Deiseblue]

Re: Public Sector Pay Agreement

Before today, the goverment stated that it need to make billions of euros worth of savings. 3 or 4 billion per budget for a number of years.
Today we will probably see the near nationalisation of one or more bankrupt banks, and we also hear that Quinn have had the administrators called in. Think about it, it is meltdown time.

You can be sure that any 'reforms' the unions have just won't even come close to the billions of savings that's required.

If we paid the public sector zero - would this even be enough?

Well of course the required savings will not be made from either Public Sector pay cuts or efficiencies - nor did Brian Lenihan ever intend or state that they should be , no matter how much is saved in the Public Sector it will only represent a small percentage of what is nationally required.

You are of course quite right about the Banks and Quinn - bloody Private Sector marching us all over the cliff !