Public Sector Wages; what should they be benchmarked against?

Purple said:
A poor employer is one that does not run their business in an efficient way thus damaging the medium to long term prospects of their employees. If wages and pensions are being paid that are not economically sustainable then the business is being badly run and so they are bad employers. If staff are not being used efficiently then the business is being badly run and so they are bad employers. If staffing levels are higher than necessary because of structural inefficiencies then the business is being badly run and so they are bad employers.

That’s my question; are the market rates set at what is being paid by large multinationals that conduct most of their business out of the country or should they be set at what is being paid in the SME sector?
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A poor employer to the employee is one who treat their staff badly, with unnecessary pay cuts. A poor employer is one who does not seize the opportunity presented by its workforce to reform.

Is there a difference in your industry? Not in mine. Why would anyone stay with the SME? Unless they are monkeys!!!
 
corkgal said:
A poor employer to the employee is one who treat their staff badly, with unnecessary pay cuts.
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I agree, but that’s not what is happening in the public sector at the moment. However painful the cuts are for those on the receiving end they are absolutely necessary.

corkgal said:
A poor employer is one who does not seize the opportunity presented by its workforce to reform.
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A poor employer is one that relies on its workforce to drive reform, allows them a veto over changes or allows a “them and us” mentality to develop within management or the general workforce..

corkgal said:
Is there a difference in your industry? Not in mine. Why would anyone stay with the SME? Unless they are monkeys!!!
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The SME sector is the engine of most economies (check out the Germanys mid-sized companies for a good example). The public sector, however well run and efficient it is, however necessary or well delivered their services are, does not create wealth; private industry does.

Why do people stay with SME companies? There are many reasons; they do what their father/mother did, they don’t like bureaucratic organisations, they do like meritocracies, they are interested in a particular field or sector, they want to work for themselves and see it as a stepping stone, they can earn more money etc etc.
 
corkgal said:
A poor employer is one who does not seize the opportunity presented by its workforce to reform.
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A poor employer is one who let's unions decide how the company should be run.
A poor employer is one who accepts persistant inefficiencies and does not try to manage his workforce and his operation in the most cost-efficient manner (note I said cost efficient, not cheapest, there is a difference).
 
We could start by benchmarking the PRSI rates. Why do public sector emplyees pay less PRSI than private sector?
 
webbs said:
Why not spread this across all sectors of the economy that way we will have a workforce who would be unable to even think about having a disposable income as they would be unsure one month to the next regarding their jobs.
They would be unwilling to contribute to the economy as they would save any money they could to help in the likely outcome of being laid off, they would also be unable to secure mortgages, loans etc and so would further retreat from contributing to the economy.
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Individual borrowing would reduce at the beginning but as people put away a realistic rainy day fund normal spending would resume for day to day things. I agree borrowing at the high end on things such as new cars would reduce. I work on such a contract basis and didn't have any difficulty getting a mortgage as I had saved a 20% deposit.
 
I have been following a lot of the debates on the public sector stuff with interest and sometimes annoyance. Some of the opinions on both sides are so ridiculous that I couldn't be bothered replying to them;to be honest my life is too short.
However, I have come to one conclusion. There is a level of vitroil out there that is frightening and often is wrong in its sweeping assumptions. I've spent my life in the public service and have seen the times when I was glad of the security but hated the bad wages but as I had no interest in business and frankly didn't want to spend my life working in that environment , I never thought of leaving and going into something more lucrative.
I also like being employed, don't want to employ anyone and don't mind being told what to do. Equally I also knew how to manage my budget and having loads of money was not an issue. And yes, the level of responsibility that I've had and my enjoyment of the job which often meant I stayed late and took work home and my own education would probably meant more money in the private sector.
And yes , I was sick during my working life and I have taken paid sick leave and been grateful for it.In fact often in my own job, the work or a lot of it would be there for you when you came back ,the same when you went on holidays, for over ten years, I never took more than a week off together as otherwise I would be overwhelmed when I returned.
So all in all, I am a happy public servant. I am also a realistic one and yes , we have to balance the budget and as this government , our employer, seems to have over recruited in the last few years , we will have to see some changes. Furthermore , I will go further and say that I personally thought that the government missed a chance with benchmarking. There was an opportunity lost.I also saw the private sector charge the state the biggest prices for services it could get away with during the boom years. This applied to construction, IT, and supplies;the private sector made a lot of money out of this government.

But, with all this vitroil , boy am I glad that we got benchmarking!!!!
Imagine if we hadn't, they still be on here talking about out great jobs and screaming for wage cuts!!!

The discussions on this forums and the campaign by Independent News and Media are so nasty that even people like me who for the most part are middle of the road are being radicalised.

What can we do ? Not a lot perhaps.
However,maybe stop buying the Independent Group papers, why should we subject ourselves to personal invective and PAY for it?
Let the Private Sector posters who profess the neo liberal economics of the Bush admin have these fora to themselves; they have such a different view point that all you're doing by engaging with them is feeding their ire., bad for you and bad for them.
Think about your spending , in fact the way things are going most of us are down between 400 and 600 Euros a month, maybe it's time to start saving and remember that most of us aren't eligible for anything if you end up leaving your job because it's impossible, which is not an unrealistic situation due to non replacement of staff etc in many jobs.. Think of yourself and save, don't waste your money,the private sector won't thank you for it, so go for it, look after yourself.
And remember who put you in this position, come the next election!!!!!
 
Brianne said:
Let the Private Sector posters who profess the neo liberal economics of the Bush admin have these fora to themselves; they have such a different view point that all you're doing by engaging with them is feeding their ire...
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But it's fun to wind them up. Personally I love to throw in the odd hand grenade from time to time to see what sort of furious reaction its gets from AAMs resident captains of industry - you know the type - heroes of the private sector who spend half the day posting on the internet :D
 
Brianne said:
I also saw the private sector charge the state the biggest prices for services it could get away with during the boom years. This applied to construction, IT, and supplies;the private sector made a lot of money out of this government.



And remember who put you in this position, come the next election!!!!!
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I agree they were obscene but the blame lies with the government for paying these prices

On the one hand you moan about supposedly being down 400 - 600 a month and next you're advocating returning the present government.
 
The should be benchmarked against the Public Sector Wages of other Euro Zone countries. I know you don't like it, but it is a simple solution with not much room for BS, unlike 'Benchmarking'. The 'Ireland is Different' argument is just pie in the sky, we don't have oil wells (Ray Burke gave away our gas) or the like printing us money. etc etc

BTW: The same should happen to SW payments.
 
However,maybe stop buying the Independent Group papers, why should we subject ourselves to personal invective and PAY for it?
Let the Private Sector posters who profess the neo liberal economics of the Bush admin have these fora to themselves; they have such a different view point that all you're doing by engaging with them is feeding their ire., bad for you and bad for them.
Think about your spending , in fact the way things are going most of us are down between 400 and 600 Euros a month, maybe it's time to start saving and remember that most of us aren't eligible for anything if you end up leaving your job because it's impossible, which is not an unrealistic situation due to non replacement of staff etc in many jobs.. Think of yourself and save, don't waste your money,the private sector won't thank you for it, so go for it, look after yourself.
And remember who put you in this position, come the next election!!!!!
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I get the impression from public servant friends and relatives that they are deliberately not using the services of companies who's high level executives have been publically critical of the public service. They are also making efforts not to be ripped off by their fellow citizens as they can no longer afford to be - hence trips to the north and purchasing over the internet instead of shopping in Ireland.

The penny does not appear to have dropped for the vast majority of private sector firms. Yes, many have reduced prices, but not to reasonable levels - they are still creaming it. Many will go to the wall because of this. I know the organisation I work for has made a policy decision in recent weeks not to even bother seeking quotes from Irish companies for some services as the prices are not even close to being competitive.
 
csirl said:
The penny does not appear to have dropped for the vast majority of private sector firms. Yes, many have reduced prices, but not to reasonable levels - they are still creaming it. Many will go to the wall because of this. I know the organisation I work for has made a policy decision in recent weeks not to even bother seeking quotes from Irish companies for some services as the prices are not even close to being competitive.
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If companies are “creaming it” they will not go out of business.
The main problem is that our cost base, as a nation, is still way too high and as long as it’s cheaper to drive to our nearest neighbour to shop (one of the biggest and richest countries in the world) then our costs will remain too high. When our costs are lower than Northern Ireland we will be back on the right track, till then we are, and will continue to be, screwed.
Once we have out cost base back at a competitive level we need to decide how much we can afford to spend on public services and then decide what services we can get for that money.
 
Purple said:
If companies are “creaming it” they will not go out of business.
The main problem is that our cost base, as a nation, is still way too high and as long as it’s cheaper to drive to our nearest neighbour to shop (one of the biggest and richest countries in the world) then our costs will remain too high. When our costs are lower than Northern Ireland we will be back on the right track, till then we are, and will continue to be, screwed.
Once we have out cost base back at a competitive level we need to decide how much we can afford to spend on public services and then decide what services we can get for that money.
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The big issue is that the Government are not adjusting our competitiveness in tandem in all areas of the economy. Unless its all done together, then the better people in areas that have been adjusted will drift into those that havent.
 
csirl said:
The big issue is that the Government are not adjusting our competitiveness in tandem in all areas of the economy. Unless its all done together, then the better people in areas that have been adjusted will drift into those that havent.
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Agreed.
 
Towger said:
The should be benchmarked against the Public Sector Wages of other Euro Zone countries. I know you don't like it, but it is a simple solution with not much room for BS, unlike 'Benchmarking'. The 'Ireland is Different' argument is just pie in the sky, we don't have oil wells (Ray Burke gave away our gas) or the like printing us money. etc etc

BTW: The same should happen to SW payments.
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The slight flaw with this approach is that it ignores that fact that Irish public servants need to live in Ireland, pay Irish property prices, pay Irish grocery prices, pay Irish petrol prices etc etc. They will be competing in an employment marketplace with Irish private sector organisations.

This approach of exclusively external benchmarking is a charter to tear apart public services by starving it of adequete resources.
 
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