Public sector pay rise

[Purple]

Our education system does remarkably well by international comparison considering how underfunded it is. I am teaching over 30 years and have yet to meet a teacher who looks for continuous validation from strangers. It would be nice not to be vilified so often by random strangers!

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f6e114-major-international-study-finds-irelands-students-among-top-performe/#:~:text=PISA results show the difference in performance between,what it is, on average, across OECD countries

We do rank very well for literacy, as we do for inclusion amongst the economically disadvantaged. We are 21st and 24th on Maths and Science respectively. We spend 121.5% o total government expenditure on education, well ahead of the OECD and EU average. When adjusted for Purchasing Power our teachers are paid slightly above the OECD average. We have a pupil teacher ratio of 15.1 to 1, the OECD average is 15.0 to 1 so just about at the average. Irish teachers work more hours than the OECD average but have a much shorter working year (far more holidays).
We spend slightly less than the OECD average per child at both primary and secondary level and wages make up a larger proportion of that spend than the OECD average.
It's without doubt that our third level is under funded relative to where it was pre-crash but it's still above the OECD average.
Good info here.

I have never met a younger teacher who hasn't told me how hard they work, how difficult their job is, how all of their colleagues are exceptional and how badly paid they are. I agree that older teachers don't go on like that, and now that I think about it older Nurses don't either. Maybe it's a generational thing or maybe the older ones know they are better paid and have better pensions and own their own homes so keep their heads down and say nothin'.

 

[Threadser]

We are 21st and 24th on Maths and Science respectively.

You forgot to qualify that we are 21st in Maths and 22nd in Science out of the 78 participating regions. Not a bad performance at all. Teaching is without doubt a difficult job but it has it's benefits of course. The amount of ill-informed comment and at times outright nastiness about the profession is difficult to deal with. This doesn't tend to come from parents who are directly dealing with teachers, particulaly at primary level, who I have always found to be supportive and appreciative

This graph shows that our total government expenditure on education as a % of GDP is amongst the lowest in the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/stati...php?title=Government_expenditure_on_education

 

[Purple]

You forgot to qualify that we are 21st in Maths and 22nd in Science out of the 78 participating regions. Not a bad performance at all.

Yes, it's quite good but not "world class" as we often tell ourselves.

Teaching is without doubt a difficult job but it has it's benefits of course. The amount of ill-informed comment and at times outright nastiness about the profession is difficult to deal with.

Yep, and anyone who wants to can try to become a teacher so if it was that good there's be lots more of them. That said the pension and the holidays are a big plus.

This doesn't tend to come from parents who are directly dealing with teachers, particulaly at primary level, who I have always found to be supportive and appreciative.

I have 3 children in the education system. My experience is that teachers are no better or worse than any other sector of society; some are great, most are good and some are awful. There's plenty of legitimate criticism of the sector and plenty of groundless criticism. The problem is that we've all been through the education system and we've all seen the good and the bad of it so we all have an opinion. I'm sure that can be hard to listen to at times.

 

[Threadser]

The problem is that we've all been through the education system and we've all seen the good and the bad of it so we all have an an opinion

I definitely agree with this. The holidays are a big plus but no one could sustain the emotional and mental energy required for teaching without them. I have worked in other sectors with much less holidays but the intensity of the job was far less. The pension is certainly a big plus for those who entered service pre 95, but for those who entered from 2013 onwards it may just about be adequate.

 

[Purple]

I definitely agree with this. The holidays are a big plus but no one could sustain the emotional and mental energy required for teaching without them. I have worked in other sectors with much less holidays but the intensity of the job was far less. The pension is certainly a big plus for those who entered service pre 95, but for those who entered from 2013 onwards it may just about be adequate.

I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs. There's usually a "yes, there used to be bad teachers but now they are all great" type answer. As a parent I can say that's categorically not true. The other problem is that the superb ones that do the extracurricular activities and clearly love and excel at the jobs get paid exactly the same as the rubbish ones.

 

[Threadser]

I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs.

Teachers are humans and like every other profession there will be good and bad. I think the " performance related pay" you are advocating would be impossible to implement fairly. There are so many different contexts and variables that the common basic scale is, on balance. the best approach. Had I stayed working in the all girls school in an affluent area where I started my career I don't doubt my performance would have always been viewed as excellent. Instead I opted to work in an inner city DEIS boys school where keeping the children within the four walls on some days constitutes an achievement!

 

[noproblem]

I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs. There's usually a "yes, there used to be bad teachers but now they are all great" type answer. As a parent I can say that's categorically not true. The other problem is that the superb ones that do the extracurricular activities and clearly love and excel at the jobs get paid exactly the same as the rubbish ones.

What do you want teachers to do? Arrange a press conference tomorrow and announce that there's some bad eggs in their profession, or what? I know of no job/profession where's there's 100% brilliant people, nothing too mind boggling in that. What's your obsession with teachers? Amazing too that your meeting up with all those teachers who tell you how great they are, etc. I'd have thought your social acquaintances might not have been from that profession. God only knows why I'd have thought that.

 

[Deiseblue]

So the freeze on increments under Haddington Road was a pay cut but the payment of increments nowadays is not a pay rise? Or are you referring to those on 80k or more, who in fairness, took a temporary pay cut (which plenty of people in the private sector on those salaries also took).

I've never denied that the Public Sector took some pain, my issue is the failure of public sector unions and employees to acknowledge that an increment is a payrise.

The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!

 

[Purple]

Teachers are humans and like every other profession there will be good and bad.

Absolutely, but that's not what most teachers say, not in public anyway.

I think the " performance related pay" you are advocating would be impossible to implement fairly. There are so many different contexts and variables that the common basic scale is, on balance. the best approach.

I'm not advocating performance related pay. I agree that it would be impossible but it has to be a bit demoralising for those good teachers to see the clock-watchers just putting in the hours and nothing else.

Had I stayed working in the all girls school in an affluent area where I started my career I don't doubt my performance would have always been viewed as excellent. Instead I opted to work in an inner city DEIS boys school where keeping the children within the four walls on some days constitutes an achievement!

Do teachers in DEIS schools get paid more? If not then they should; it's a much harder job.

 

[noproblem]

The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!

If it was teachers you were referring to, they might remark about your use of exclamation marks instead of question marks.

 

[Purple]

What do you want teachers to do? Arrange a press conference tomorrow and announce that there's some bad eggs in their profession, or what? I know of no job/profession where's there's 100% brilliant people, nothing too mind boggling in that.

That would be mind boggling alright. No, but dialling down the rhetoric about how superhuman they are, how hard they work and how difficult the job is would be nice. There's loads of harder and more stressful jobs out there (and I wouldn't do them either).

What's your obsession with teachers?

This is a discussion, that's all. They do seem to be very thin skinned and don't take criticism well. Maybe if they said less about how great they are they'd hear less "feedback".

Amazing too that your meeting up with all those teachers who tell you how great they are, etc. I'd have thought your social acquaintances might not have been from that profession.

I know people from all sorts of sectors and industries, teaching included. It's good to get other people's opinions; it broadens the mind.

God only knows why I'd have thought that.

I hang around with the ones who are proper grown-ups and have a balanced view of the world and their place in it. If you think I'm critical of teachers you should hear me talk about my own sector and my own company. Nobody ever got better at their job by patting themselves on their back. Critical self examination is useful.

 

[Threadser]

They do seem to be very thin skinned and don't take criticism well.

Why persist in making sweeping generalisations about a profession that has 65,000 members? Staff in DEIS schools don't get paid more and this is probably for the best as the last thing you would want would be teachers applying to work with disadvantaged kids for the "extra" money. I do it because it is challenging and because the kids are authentic, sometimes troubled and often entertaining.

 

[rustbucket]

Think this has veered off course a bit lads.

 

[Purple]

Think this has veered off course a bit lads.

It has.

 

[Peanuts20]

The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!

So you're saying the Government is right !!

Not sure all the Taxpayers in the country agree with that view however.

 

[Purple]

The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!

The Unionised Civil Servants negotiating with the Union officials on pay rises they all get don’t call them pay rises. That’s hard to believe, isn’t it?
The people who don’t get the pay rises but have to pay for them, they call them pay rises.

 

[Deiseblue]

So you're saying the Government is right !!

Not sure all the Taxpayers in the country agree with that view however.

Of course the Government is right as are Unions and employees- increments are not pay rises as all partners involved in pay negotiations agree .
You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.

 

[Firefly]

You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.

It's hard to tell the difference sometimes

 

[Purple]

You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.

No, but the Civil Servants who are the permanent government of the country are all in Unions and benefit from there “Emperor’s new clothes” type pay rises that aren’t pay rises but do the same thing as pay rises.

 

[Peanuts20]

Of course the Government is right as are Unions and employees- increments are not pay rises as all partners involved in pay negotiations agree .
You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.

So if I work in the private sector and my company says, we're not paying any payrises this year, but we're going to give you an increment instead and we all agree not to call it a payrise, it's not a payrise??

I feel like I'm in a lost episode of Yes Minister