Petrol Prices Protest July 14th

[LIVERLIPS]

Just to let you know that there is meant to be a protest about the petrol prices at the moment as they keep on rising. At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre. So tomorrow is the day we are meant to boycott the garages and give them a fright.

 

[MichaelL]

You will still have to buy petrol at some point in the next couple of days though, so one days takings will be down but subsequent days will increase

 

[ubiquitous]

I have yet to see any reports or specific allegations of profit-taking by garages amid the recent prices rises. Any protest should be directed at the govt as they take the lions share of the price in VAT and excise. I understand that garages enjoy a very small margin on fuel sales.

 

[Kiddo]

Most petrol stations make very little profit margin on fuel...they make their money on the sweets/chocolate etc you buy when you go in to the shop to pay.For the cheapest fuel in your area check out this website

http://www.irishfuelprices.com/

 

[Humpback]

This was mentioned on the Boards.ie Ripoff Ireland Forum as well. It appears that the protest is originally based in America.

I'll paste here what I said in response to the original call to protest there.

If there was to be any boycott of petrol stations (for whatever reasons), I reckon it'd make more sense to boycott one particular petrol company, ALL of the time.

At a certain point in time, they'd have to drop their prices if no one was buying from them.

Which would then lead to the others dropping their prices because of the competition on price.

But what are the chances of having the whole country boycotting a particular brand for 3-4 weeks or more to cause this to happen?

We complain a lot about stuff, but something as easy as this would never be done because I reckon, despite the complaining, people don't really care enough. (Something along just liking the sound of their own voices???)

 

[ubiquitous]

With all respect, I don't think that this proposal makes any sense. Do you really think that if a boycott forced, say, Statoil to shut all their service stations that Texaco, Shell and the others would reduce their prices? If Tesco were forced to close in this way, would Dunnes and Lidl be cheaper? Basic economics tells us that when you remove a competitor from a market, the level of competition declines and prices go up.

 

[Humpback]

With all respect, I don't think that this proposal makes any sense. Do you really think that if a boycott forced, say, Statoil to shut all their service stations that Texaco, Shell and the others would reduce their prices? If Tesco were forced to close in this way, would Dunnes and Lidl be cheaper? Basic economics tells us that when you remove a competitor from a market, the level of competition declines and prices go up.

If you're referring to my post, I never mentioned anything about forcing a company to close.

My proposal makes sense on the basis that if someone isn't getting any business or income from customers, they'll see what they can do to recover customers and market share. In a petrol station, the only real differential is price, so therefore that would be the first thing to be addressed.

As evidence of that, note how petrol prices in all the stations around about Tesco have dropped their price to the same level as Tesco.

With Tesco undercutting their prices, they were getting no business. To get business back, they cut their price to attract back the customers.

 

[Jister]

Petrol (Oil) is running out, the more it costs the longer it will last and the less dependent we will become on it.

 

[ubiquitous]

if someone isn't getting any business or income from customers, they'll see what they can do to recover customers and market share. In a petrol station, the only real differential is price, so therefore that would be the first thing to be addressed.

If their business isn't viable as a result they will close.

 

[Humpback]

If their business isn't viable as a result they will close.

Yes, I agree.

But, is a company like Shell going to go immediately from "we've no customers and not making money" in one swift and immediate step to "we're closing down" without going through a couple of phases of trying to win back these customers????

In my opinon, they'd do stuff first before shutting down. And the "stuff" they'd have to do would most likely be of benefit to consumers.

 

[ubiquitous]

Not necessarily. Businesses tend not to hang around when they start losing money or their market becomes unprofitable. For example, watch what happens the next time a US multinational announces it is pulling out of Ireland because the cost base here is too high. In the case of smaller business, it is usually the bank that forces the plug to be pulled when things take a turn for the worse.

 

[CGorman]

Petrol (Oil) is running out, the more it costs the longer it will last and the less dependent we will become on it.

Exactly... personally im glad to see (hopefully) the end of very cheap oil. It will force us to broaden our sources of energy to more sustainable and enviromentally friendly sources. I live within a mile or so of everything I need and can cycle a furture couple of miles when I need too. I know its not practical for everyone to do that and we do need cars - but we it to be economic for business to adopt better solutions.

 

[z102]

Jister and CGorman are thinking logical whilst some other posters like Liverlips have a very limited view on the issue . The head of Frankfurt a. Main airport and board member of the German Lufthansa announced only 4 weeks ago that civil aviation won't exist any more after 2050 - and becoming expensive in the mean time . Due to the lack of affordable kerosene.

When these people - like Mr. Bender - say this than not to scare away investors. But to invite science and industry to think about something else as a method of transport . Since jet planes take nothing else than kerosene made from oil . Since there is no alternative to kerosene there is also an alternative to this scenario : to reserve a certain amount of the globes natural oil sources for civil aviation only .That's what Mr. Bender says.

And that would make car driving impossible . For car engines are many alternatives . Not so for jet planes . 8 % of the globes oil resources are used up for aviation. This number is on the increase .

Has Liverlips and the " carbon junkies " any alternative to offer ?

Lidl has plant oil for € 0.62/liter for offer. And it can be used readily in many cars . Without adaption of the car -but check the home pages of the car manufacturers to see if your model is suitable . Maybe a car with a future is the future choice ?!

Have you ever been abroad Liverlips ?

In France the Liter of petrol costs around € 1.40 .The same goes for Germany and the Netherlands .These countries charge what they have to to a.) get away from the drug of cheap carbon and b.) to finance the deadly habit of the Irish drivers by paying for their roads. And these nations have to run a real war in the meantime to keep supplies running .

If it doesn't hurt it won't help.

You could as well boycott US products and block the run way on Shannon airport . That would bring oil prices down . Simply by parking your cars on the runway 'till eternity you would help to reduce the demand of oil. And therefore make life better for many. Liverlips want solidarity with the ignorant energy punks ( “ no future ! “). Is he willing to show solidarity with those who are dying for his habit ?

Oil prices increase by around $ 0.50 - per week . Pull out the calculator and see when you'll end with an empty tank and an empty wallet .

 

[CGorman]

For example, watch what happens the next time a US multinational announces it is pulling out of Ireland because the cost base here is too high.

I know this is not your main point... but I just want to say that Ireland is still a reasonably affordable place to operate... despite the scaremongering often done by the media. Our wages might be very high, but if the average salery is say 30k in a company in Ireland and tax contributions are 15k thats 45k whereas in say france the salery might only be 25k but the tax contributions might also be 25k... i.e 50k (note im only making up figures for illustrative purposes, but I know for a fact the after tax cost of employing staff in Ireland is still relativty competitive...im not sure where I read it, it might have been a while back in "The Economist"... can't remember). Also as pointed out above fuel costs are significantly lower in Ireland than in continental Euope. Anyways my point is Ireland still is fairly competitve cost wise. (Sorry if im not making sense... its been a long day!)

Oil prices increase by around $ 0.50 - per week . Pull out the calculator and see when you'll end with an empty tank and an empty wallet

Well just because oil jumped an average of 50c each week for many weeks does'nt mean it will do the same next week. The concensus view among industry commentators is for continued high prices (i.e. $60 a barrell) through the winter then a fall to about $50 for the medium term. At the moment the high oil prices are actually been caused by short supply - world capacity is being nearly fully utilised - this contrasted with previous price spikes when uncertainty underpined high prices; this suggests that a fall back to cheap oil or even moderately priced oil ($30-$40) is unlikely ever again.

The head of Frankfurt a. Main airport and board member of the German Lufthansa announced only 4 weeks ago that civil aviation won't exist any more after 2050 - and becoming expensive in the mean time . Due to the lack of affordable kerosene.

Yes this is very worrying for the global economy and all aspects of international transport... althought transit costs actually account for relatively little in the overall cost of goods at present, the lack of affordable aviation would destroy current distribution systems. I would imagine that Europe will gain a huge commerical advantage over American should aviation become too expensive due to our large train network which is currently being developed significantly. Unfortuantly this won't help us on our little island!

I've gotta go, I have plenty more to rant on about (wind, energy conservation...)

 

[LIVERLIPS]

Hi heinbloed, i was only stating that some garages are really hiking their prices up and some do not display them properly. There is a garage in swords that charges 109 at the moment for diesel and petrol, when there should be a difference between them. Also heinbloed i have been aboard several times, and i know england do not tax their cars on the engine size it is just a flat fee and look how good their roads are compared to ours. I have to avoid about 10 potholes every day. And when a company digs up the roads here they leave them in worse state e.g In Swords Ratebeale rRoad at the moment their is lumps out of the road where pipes where laid a few weeks ago and they never flattened the road after them. They should be fined for leaving roads like that. Which can damage tyres and cause blowouts.

I suppose you think ESB has a right aswell to look for another increase when they made a massive profit last year. I suggest we do not sit back and take this increase yet again as was said this is one of the main reasons US companies are moving out of the country.

 

[CGorman]

I suppose you think ESB has a right aswell to look for another increase when they made a massive profit last year. I suggest we do not sit back and take this increase yet again as was said this is one of the main reasons US companies are moving out of the country.

Hold on a minute, the ESB has huge financial challenges ahead so its profits are not only justifed but needed for its continued survival. Electricity distribution is a very capital intensive business (and is done in Ireland by ESB Networks, a seperate enitity from the ESB, but still owned by it). Last year the ESB spent €700m investing in the National grid; althought it could easily secure €700m annually in borrowings it is far better to pay for this with profits rather than to borrow the money and repay perhaps €800m; and more importantly to avoid inflating its liabilities before a possible privatisation in the next ten years. Oh and don't forget the €0.5bn pension fund deficiet!

The ESB's profits are on par with industry averages and relatively meagre when you compare it with some (the banks!) other big Irish companies:

• ESB: 04' Revenues €2.6bn (R); 04' Operating profit €362m (P); P as % of R = 13%
• Duke energy: 04' Revenue $22.5bn (R); 04' Operating Profit $3bn (P); P as % of R = 13.33%
• American Electric Power: 04' Revenue $14bn (R); 04' Operating Profit $2bn (P); P as % of R = 14.28%
• AIB: 04' Revenue €7.35bn (R); 04' Operating Profit €2.36bn (P); P as % of R = 32%

Now what is the purpose of the ESB, why does it exist? a) to provide power supply and distribution to all homes and businesses in Ireland, b) to do so in a reasonably efficent and cost effective manner, c) to provide quality employment to several thousend employees, d) to make a return for its owners (the Irish taxpayer), e) to grow its business and diversify to allow its owners (the Irish taxpayer) to make a return (or at least a limited loss) should it be privatised. If you examine these points, it has been very successful (certainly when compared to RTE and Eircom).

On a) it has been hugely successful in providing a grid connection to virtually everyone - in most countries smaller communities even on the main land lack grid connections because of the high cost of doing so. Not in Ireland. Passed
On b) it has done only ok; energycosts are above international averages and the company has failed to adaquately diversify its energy sources. Failed.
On c) it has done very well currently provideng 8,500 good pernsionable jobs - and creating employment for many more contractors. There also has been relatively little serious industrial action in the past few years. Passed
On d) In contrast to Aer Lingus, RTE, and An Post the ESB has made a reasonable return for its shareholders for much of the last decade or so. Passed
On e) It has diversifed to a greater extent from its core market than other semi states; having jointly developed power stations in Spain and even bid for a transmission network serving several million more than its Irish one in the USA. Passed.

Thats four out of five goals met. Not too bad. And on b) it is'nt too bad, in fairness it has fitted out Poolbeg and North Wall power stations to use either oil or gas so it can capitalise on which is more economic at any particular time.

Oh and again you've raised the pont about the Irish cost base. Companies can choose who to get their energy from! So you can't blame the ESB for that one, they can buy from Viridian and Airtricity to name two.

 

[CGorman]

At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre.

Shop around theres only a few that high. In Mullingar - which does'nt have a Tesco station - you can get it for 102.9 at one station and at 104.9 at most of the others.

 

[CCOVICH]

Now what is the purpose of the ESB, why does it exist?
c) to provide quality employment to several thousend employees,

On c) it has done very well currently provideng 8,500 good pernsionable jobs - and creating employment for many more contractors. There also has been relatively little serious industrial action in the past few years. Passed

I take serious issue with this.

There are plenty of State bodies providing 'good pensionable jobs', why should the ESB get any credit for doing so? Also, this is and should not be it's purpose, good pensionsable employment should be a by-product of a well run and efficient company.

The ESB workers are among the best paid in the Sate. The lack of industrial action is more than likely as a result of this fact. Also, what about that fiasco last year of the peat burning stations-workers refusing to leave plants that were closing down, and still getting paid, even though they weren't doing any work.

 

[jhegarty]

Just to let you know that there is meant to be a protest about the petrol prices at the moment as they keep on rising. At some garages it is 1.16 euro per litre. So tomorrow is the day we are meant to boycott the garages and give them a fright.

i am going to drive to cork tommorow , so need to fill the tank... how do I hurt the petrol station by buying it in the morning instead of tonight ?

 

[CGorman]

I take serious issue with this.

There are plenty of State bodies providing 'good pensionable jobs', why should the ESB get any credit for doing so? Also, this is and should not be it's purpose, good pensionsable employment should be a by-product of a well run and efficient company.

The ESB workers are among the best paid in the Sate. The lack of industrial action is more than likely as a result of this fact. Also, what about that fiasco last year of the peat burning stations-workers refusing to leave plants that were closing down, and still getting paid, even though they weren't doing any work.

I did not cite employment as the sole reason for its existance, only one of many many purposes. I will admit thought that my father is an ESB employee and althought I do not know what his wages are, I do know he certainly is paid well. However he works unbelievable hours. He works in the Networks devision and every third or forth week he is 'on call' ; its not uncommon (in fact its very frequently the case) that he works at all hours of the night - he might have to hope in his van and drive 30km at 3am - it happens regurally - and he is paid very little for this extra work because regardless of how many times you are called out you are paid the same amount. I assure you that the Nertworks devision is far from overstaffed and that the company is deriving every last ounce of efficency from that part of the business at least.

As regards the peat station fiasco - I agree with you that was stupid.