Oil find off coast of Cork

There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link

Ray Burke cut the State’s share in offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero and abolishing royalties. We get nothing.

Incorrect. We do get something.

Yes, Ray Burke cut the State's share in offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero.
Yes, Ray Burke abolished royalties (as many other European countries did at the time).

But, what happened was the way we get profit from the natural resources changed. Instead of owning the resources that are found, or holding royalties, we get profit by corporation tax. Normal corporation tax in Ireland is about 12.5%. Corporation tax on the most unprofitable fields is 25%, the increase in tax reflects that our natural resources are being taken. Corporation tax on the most profitable fields is 40%.

People say that we don't own any of our natural resources that are producing gas or oil. They are 100% correct. But it is misleading. Because many people misunderstand that as meaning we don't get anything for our gas or oil. But we do. And the bigger the find the more we get.
 
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link



Bertie reduced the tax rate for the profits made from the sale of these resources from 50% to 25%. But then also introduced breaks into the tax system so that there is a 100% write off of investment before they would pay any tax. This includes the cost of exploration, drilling, etc, but also allows companies to put upfront the cost of closing the rigs too all before they declare a profit.

This is 100% correct. And at the end of the day the companies make vast profits. And the taxpayer gets 25% of those profits.
 
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link


There is too much potential to write off as a cost without close scutiny so that not even a cent of tax is paid.

Sorry, but I don't know how you can credibly justify that remark.
 
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link



There's unlikely to be any immediate or even short term jobs benefit as the skills and knowledge don't exist here yet.

Fact = Terminal 2 at Dublin airport was Ireland's biggest construction site in 2009. The Corrib gas terminal was Ireland's second biggest construction site in 2009. There are 600 employed there today, 50% of them are local people. I live in County Mayo. I know exactly what goes on. Sometimes many people from other countries are emlpoyed because of their expertise at starting up a plant, but a lot of locals get jobs too, and they are good jobs.
 
There's some a benefit to having some oil and refined and processed here so that we aren't at the end of the european pipe. Does that equate to a more standard contract for exploration? Probably not.

But it is very difficult to propose such a contract that will get the foreign companies to explore here. That is the fundamental problem here and always has been. We can't do the drilling ourselves. Companies are hesitant to do so. That is the key issue that protestors and some of even the most trusted media personalties never mention. We have the exact same approach to natural resources now, as Norway had before large fields were found in Norway. When large fields were found in Norway, the Norwegian government changed their policy immediately. If large fields are found here, the same will happen, and our government will increase our profits too. Until then we are begging companies to come here and explore, but they tend to want to explore in places such as the North Sea which has an amazing history of success. That is the crux of the problem. Critics of the government will go on TV and propose all sorts of ideas. The media should interview the heads of companies who don't drill in Ireland, and that is where you will hear a better version of the truth.

13 exploration licences were awarded in Ireland in 2011. But that doesn't mean that 13 companies will drill wells. They will send boats out onto the sea, and using sonar radar they will check the geology of the underlying seabed. They will review that data and either decide to drill at a cost of over €1M a day, or they will simply hand the licence back and do nothing.

I know I have dissected your post, and tried to make comments about what I think is correct and what isn't. I am certainly not trying to be insulting, and apologise if I am. I am just saying that what gets published in Ireland's leading newspapers, and on RTE televised debates is very misleading. I have actually wrote a letter to a T.D. constructively complaining to him about his opinion on Ireland's natural resources. I told him he was damaging his credibility in Dail Eireann, and among his fellow politicians. He said thanks and duly ignored me. And why not? I have written alot but maybe it is me who has got things wrong! C'est la vie.
 
I know I have dissected your post, and tried to make comments about what I think is correct and what isn't. I am certainly not trying to be insulting, and apologise if I am. QUOTE]

No, I don't think you were insulting at all and it's good to talk over the points. However, I may be wrong, but the only areas where we disagreed was:

1. 25% tax on profits and my point that they can write off the entire start up and shut down costs off the taxable profits. I presume we don't disagree that they can, as this is part of the deal. I'm also not arguing that this isn't a "cost" either. But, my understanding is that the deal isn't specific enough as to the type and nature of costs that can be used to avoid tax. In my opinion it leaves too much room for some grey accounting that will always be offset as set up costs. This could be training, IT training, relocation costs for staff, and so on. The example of the film industry is just one to show that people can be creative with accounting to demonstrate they never make a profit and pay a tax.

2. The skills. I was largely talking short to medium term. You're right that Terminal 2 used Irish labour, but this is different. Vastly different. We have the engineers for civil engineering, we have the trades. We don't have the Petrochemical engineers or the fitters, electricians, divers, welders, operators. We have limited resources for helicopters of sufficient size to get people to and from a rig. We don't have the paramedic/emergency response expertise needed to work on a rig. It's hugely specialised and it will take a long time before we have a strong Irish workforce who can service the industry. Not just direct labour, but also suppliers and contractors to the industry. There are only a few contractors who could provide sufficient labour. It will take longer than just the plant being finished before we will be able to rely on local labour. In a lot of cases we may never be able to rely on local labour because it will take so long to get the skills up to an adequate level.


As I say in a later post, in my opinion it's a gamble. I don't think that there's anything incorrect in my posts, where we disagree is our own opinions of the unknowns. My personal opinion is that we gave too much away in haste.

I'm not anti oil or oil companies the opposite in fact seeing as I've owed my early career to them and the mining industry. I said, also in a later post, I understand that we had make it attractive for companies to explore here. None of that we disagree on.

It's a very good deal for the oil companies. There's just too much of a grey area to allow for some creative accounting (who knows, maybe this is one set of accountants we can trust to not exploit a loop hole) so that profits are not paid for a very long time. Also, unlike any other industry, I'm just not sure that the direct labour it brings will be as big a benefit as other industries and I'm not sure the secondary services and suppliers will be sufficient enough a boost to make back the "lost tax".
 
1. 25% tax on profits and my point that they can write off the entire start up and shut down costs off the taxable profits. I presume we don't disagree that they can, as this is part of the deal. I'm also not arguing that this isn't a "cost" either. But, my understanding is that the deal isn't specific enough as to the type and nature of costs that can be used to avoid tax. In my opinion it leaves too much room for some grey accounting that will always be offset as set up costs. This could be training, IT training, relocation costs for staff, and so on. The example of the film industry is just one to show that people can be creative with accounting to demonstrate they never make a profit and pay a tax.

A good friend made this exact point to me, and I couldn't persuade her otherwise. But I will try to be persuasive so here.

The reason that oil and gas companies will declare profits truthfully is that;
1/. They are mostly companies owned by shareholders. If you don't have profits your market share falls drastically.
2/. There is independent regulation around declaring false values on the stock market, and also every country has its own tax fraud team. I can't imagine there is too much tax fraud in the gas and oil industry that goes unnoticed.
3/. There is enormous effort by these companies to protect their name. Their name is an extremely valuable asset. They won't risk that by committing fraud. For example, it is actually cheaper for them to spend millons on protecting the environment than to pollute it. Last year the oil spill in The Gulf of Mexico almost finished BP as a company. They were very nearly bought over.
4/. A corporation is full of people who come and go. Some have loyalty to the corporation, other don't. Nobody comes in and commits fraud on behalf of the a corporation when they know they could find themselves individually criminally liable.

Companies will take advantage and write off as much tax as it should. But the profits are still enormous. And so is the return to the taxpayer.
 
2. The skills. I was largely talking short to medium term. You're right that Terminal 2 used Irish labour, but this is different. Vastly different. We have the engineers for civil engineering, we have the trades. We don't have the Petrochemical engineers or the fitters, electricians, divers, welders, operators. We have limited resources for helicopters of sufficient size to get people to and from a rig. We don't have the paramedic/emergency response expertise needed to work on a rig. It's hugely specialised and it will take a long time before we have a strong Irish workforce who can service the industry. Not just direct labour, but also suppliers and contractors to the industry. There are only a few contractors who could provide sufficient labour. It will take longer than just the plant being finished before we will be able to rely on local labour. In a lot of cases we may never be able to rely on local labour because it will take so long to get the skills up to an adequate level.

I only mentioned Terminal 2 at Dublin airport as a reference to put the Corrib Gas Terminal in perspective. At that time 1,500 people were working at the gas terminal. Some people at the gas terminal were broadcasting that it was the biggest construction site in the country. It was enormous, but it wasn't quite the biggest.

With relation to skilled workers and long term jobs, in my opinion what happens is that because the gas and oil industry is still so very small in Ireland, these companies bring in experienced professionals from abroad for start up. But over the lifetime of the field, local people tend to get more and more of the job opportunities. Now that is just my opinion, and other people will say otherwise.
 
Hi One,
Some good points there. Whilst I agree that these oil companies would not benefit over the long term from engaging in tax fraud, I think they use every trick in the book to reduce their tax bill, which, once legal they are quite entitled to do.

However, would it not be far easier and transparent to simply charge a fixed % of the world crude price of oil as a tax on each barrel of oil extracted (off the top - no deductions) and remove corporation tax for them entirely? This would ensure an index-linked source of revenue for the taxpayer and also provide the oil co with a guaranteed fixed cost after which they keep the remainder. At least then as taxpayers we know we are getting something for every barrel produced.

Firefly.
 
I accept the profit argument, but share value is just as important and that's based on more than just profit, such as reserves of oil and earnings. What I think is being misunderstood here is that I'm not talking about fraud in any way shape or form. It's all perfectly genuine and legal, but to my knowledge it hasn't been clarified what can and can't be off set. There are other industries and businesses that legitmately take advantage of a lack of clarity to off set more as a cost in similar circumstances than most people would generally feel is appropriate.

It doesn't mean they'll never be in profit, it just gives scope that for a good few years they could not be paying any tax. Who knows if those years will turn out to be minor or if they are the best years of the rig.

As to the labour, this is the unknown. To really have locally resourced labour, we need to start upskilling now. It'll be at least 4-5 years for direct labour, possibly even longer. Not saying it'll never happen, but just we won't see an immediate benefit and, depending on the life of the reserves, it isn't clear to me if the eventual boost to the local economy is balanced by what we gave away in incentives.

We could have long term labour (imported) that stay and settle here and provide that boost to a community, but also in services to those. However, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes the companies prefer to construct compounds (almost military like) to house their staff, other times because of shift patterns (can be two weeks to a month on the rig and then two weeks to a month off at home), staff don't live in the local area and just commute to the rig when working. I know people who work off Aberdeen, but live in the North West of England. Aberdeen's boost is when they finish their shifts and essentially go on a bender for a couple of nights before going home. It's a boost alright, but like St Patrick's day is a boost. We get the money, but we don't factor in the clean up, increased security, etc.

If the reserves are long term, then we should see some benefit from this. However, and it is only my opinion at this stage, I'm sceptical that the eventual benefits will outweigh what we gave away in incentives. While we are competing with other oil areas, we could have got a much better deal without putting the companies off. Those companies aren't as reluctant to explore as you'd think and aren't as relunctant to invest as much money as necessary as you'd think. If it was hinted that Mars could contain oil, we'd be there already.

New reserves in new areas. Reserves that don't rely on very powerful, very influential countries or regions, that's as much incentive as these companies need at the moment.
 
Let’s use the Corrib Gas Project as a source of information to illustrate our various points. The Corrib Gas Project has investment from three companies. Shell Ireland (45%) is now the lead partner and operator of the joint venture with Statoil Hydro Ltd (36.5%) and Vermilion Energy (18.5%).

This means that Shell Ireland construct and operate the gas terminal, using investments from all three companies. The three companies all then take a profit in the ratios outlined above. All three companies will have their own financial auditors and regulators.

But before any profits are distributed these three companies are entitled to receive payment for all the money they invested. To make things simple, they are entitled to every cent they invested for everything and anything before they starting paying tax. €3BN has been invested to date. So €3BN will be paid back. That €3BN is declared to the public on documents lodged in the Company’s Registration Office in Dublin.

A truthful fact about a gas field is that nobody, not even the experts can predict exactly how much a gas field is worth. The field can last well over a decade, and gas prices will fluctuate. The gas field can actually have much more gas or much less gas than is predicted and the volume isn’t even known until the field is operational. That means when the wells are drilled and gas is coming out. Not all of the gas in the field is recoverable. If they get 90% of all of the gas out then they have done a great job. But, for the sake of this discussion let us say the value of the Corrib gas field is worth €15BN.

Then €3BN will be paid back to the three companies. Then they will start making profits, and then they will be taxed. 25% of the remaining €12BN is €3BN. Therefore the Irish taxpayer will take €3BN if the Corrib gas field is worth €15BN. The Irish taxpayer will take €6.7BN if the Corrib gas field is worth €30BN.


I know I am probably simplifying the numbers here, but I don’t think I am too far wrong either.
 
I am going to try to persuade you that if you are a managing director of a company that Ireland is not a great place to explore. (These reasons are the reasons I think that the coast of Ireland is not full of companies with rigs drilling wells.)

You are much more likely to find commercially viable field off the coast of Norway and in The North Sea. Norway has gas 31 fields. Denmark has gas 20 fields, the U.K. has gas 100 fields, Holland has gas 100 fields and Ireland has 4 (after only 40 years of exploration).

The size of some of the fields you will find off the coast of Norway and in The North Sea have been much larger than off Ireland. I have listed nine of the top fields in Norway, five are smaller than Corrib. Four are considerably larger. See the link. http://www.reisenett.no/norway/facts/economy/oil_producer.html

The infrastructure in that area of the world allows you to get to a profit making stage far quicker than in Ireland. I think a commercially viable field off Dalkey in Dublin was being looked at last year. The odds are that no oil will come from that for years yet, if ever. The Corrib saga has gone on for years.

Norway (31 Fields)
Times Bigger Than Corrib
1
Byggve gas field
0.3% smaller
2
Frigg gas field
7
3
Heimdal gas field
0.05% smaller (1/20)
4
Ormen Lange (gas field)
11
5
Skirne gas field
0.3% smaller
6
Sleipner gas field
2
7
Snøhvit
0.5% smaller (1/2)
8
Troll gas field
25
9
Vale gas field
0.05% smaller (1/20)



Why would you come to Ireland when other areas are more fruitful?
 
If I was the Minister of Natural Resources today, I would throw a coat over my head as I walked in and out of Leinster House so as not to be seen, and I would continue with the terms and conditions that we currently have. I would believe I was doing the right thing for the Irish people, being mindful of those people lying on trolleys in hospitals, of emigration and mass employment, of the sick and the elderly. I would think I would have a very hard time of convincing the Irish public of this (and that is why I would cover my head, lol), but I would persevere.

Exploring off the Irish coast is the same as buying a €20M lottery ticket. The odds of winning are 4 (fields) / 156 (wells drilled) = 2.56%. It will take years after you scratch your winning lottery ticket before any profit is made.

€35 million has already spent on the consultation process for the new Children’s Hospital, without a brick laid or a location sorted yet. Families all around the country need that hospital badly and need it 'yesterday'. Every family in Ireland has been affected someway by cancer. We need more centers of excellance and earlier detection. If you had €20M in the morning and sat in Government where would you spend it? I would be spending it on that hospital, and not off the coast of Ireland on wells that have proved very barren over the last 40 years. That is for sure.
 
Those companies aren't as reluctant to explore as you'd think and aren't as relunctant to invest as much money as necessary as you'd think. If it was hinted that Mars could contain oil, we'd be there already.

This is the part we disagree on. You have to justify this. I will try to justify my opinion here. At the end of 2011 we gave 13 companies licences to explore and drill. What will probably happen is that 50% of those companies will turn around in a year and hand the licences back without drilling any wells at all. That is what has happened for the last 20 years. Then you might have some of the remaining companies that will drill some wells, which is indeed what we want. They might find something, and hopefully they will! The odds are that they won't. Again, we have only 4 fields from 40 years exploration! Time will tell. I don't hear of Statoil, Shell, Exon, BP or Esso having dozens and dozens of rigs drilling off our coast, while at the same time people say we have given our reserves away for free. There is a contradiction in that. Some people say we have given all of our abundant natural resources away, but yet the Irish coast is not flooded with offshore exploration. The Irish media sometimes don't make sense to me!
 
Hi One,
Whilst I agree that these oil companies would not benefit over the long term from engaging in tax fraud, I think they use every trick in the book to reduce their tax bill, which, once legal they are quite entitled to do.

Yes, and I agree with you that they are entitled to do that. And they should do that. And every company (and every individual) should do that. And foreign companies invest in Ireland to do that all the time. Any my favourite band U2 do it as well, and why not? Good luck to them. Bill Gates does it with Microsoft, and he donates millons of euros to the poor. He is a very admirable man indeed.

I try to reduce my tax bill by having a car with a small engine, by claiming back on medical expenses, etc. As long as it is legal everyone should do it. I think there is millons of euro that the taxpayer does not calim back from the revenue every year that they shoudl claim back. There ain't no shame in being tax savvy.
 
However, would it not be far easier and transparent to simply charge a fixed % of the world crude price of oil as a tax on each barrel of oil extracted (off the top - no deductions) and remove corporation tax for them entirely? This would ensure an index-linked source of revenue for the taxpayer and also provide the oil co with a guaranteed fixed cost after which they keep the remainder. At least then as taxpayers we know we are getting something for every barrel produced.

It is a fair point. But the corporation tax does serve us well with all the other industries in Ireland. All corporation tax is based on profits made (I think). There is no reason for it not to work well within the oil and gas industry.
 
One,

I'm not sure what your posts are getting at, I don't deny that we needed incentives I just think we gave too much away in haste, so much so that I don't think we ever really get the full benefits of the drilling either in direct taxation or in direct and secondary services.

The reason why Ireland has become more interesting to the oil companies is filled with technical developments and political. The government moved too soon and didn't realise that they would actually have the upper hand.

Exploration has become much more accurate and reliable, and as technology improves, cheaper.

It isn't new that there are reserves off the coast, it has just always been the case that the technology didn't exist to find and access those reserves in an economic fashion. Here's the crunch (and why the Mars analogy was right): they developed the technology so that they could get at those reserves, they wanted to and want to get it.

It wasn't a case that the government went begging for the companies to come here, they were already interested, but needed convincing as to the finer details. Burke and then Ahern jumped the gun and went in with a very low offer.

And that's the argument, not that there shouldn't have been incentives, just that the deal shouldn't have been so biased to the other side. That perhaps some greater consideration should have been given (than I can see) to the actual pay back period for the state.

The deal is symptomatic of the politics at the time.
 
In todays British Budget, it was announced that companies that do North Sea exploration will get £3bn from the UK Government.
 
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