Not allowed to contribute to Irish State Pension while living in the UK

[Early Riser]

"Post-Brexit can a UK-resident individual make voluntary PRSI contributions?"

Perhaps it should be whether a UK resident individual who is in insured employment in the UK can make voluntary PRSI contributions to cover the same time period in Ireland?

It is likely that a UK resident individual who is not in insurable UK employment could make voluntary PRSI contributions if they met the Irish criteria otherwise.
It is also highly likely that they could make voluntary PRSI contributions to cover a period before they took up UK employment (or self-employment). For example, Jill moves to the UK in 2021 and takes up UK employment in 2023. I don't think there would be any doubt that Jill could now apply to make voluntary PRSI contributions for 2021 and 2022 (the normal criteria being met). But could she make voluntary contributions for 2023 while simultaneously contributing to UK national insurance?

 

[DannyBoyD]

could [a worker] make voluntary [PRSI] contributions for 2023 while simultaneously contributing to UK national insurance?

I'm pretty certain the answer is no.

Whilst folks who worked in the UK can continue to make contributions to qualify for the UK state pension following a move to Ireland, I'm 95% certain the reverse is not true.

Life however is full of surprises, can anyone here find hard info to the contrary?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

They seem to be varieties of the same issue. If we separate them it will be more confusing, rather than less confusing.

But if someone wants to start a new thread as a Key Post and cover all the issues that would be great.

Brendan

 

[Mothergoose]

Thanks to all of you for the comments and information. I have appealed the decision to the Eligibility Officer who made it, and to the Appeals Office. I understand that if I am not happy with their decision that I can appeal it to the Ombudsman. Whatever decision they make, I'll have to go with. My accountant was surprised at their rejection of my claim. He has a few clients working in the UK as PAYE and contributing voluntary contributions in Ireland.

 

[DannyBoyD]

He has a few clients working in the UK as PAYE and contributing voluntary contributions in Ireland.

If it's certain that it's ROI contributions they are making, can you ask them to write a letter to that effect?

They'd need permission to cite their details, but if there's already a precedent set I'd be very surprised if the DSP did not have that information.

 

[Mothergoose]

Hi! All,, I got a reply to my question about paying voluntary contributions to my Irish pension while working in UK. The reply was from Client Eligibility Services not from the Chief Appeals Officer, who I have written to and who hasn't replied yet. The letter states that I am not able to pay voluntary contributions in Ireland to my pension, whilst working in the UK, and quotes the piece of legislation above which several of you have quoted that is S12(4) of the Bi-Lateral Agreement between UK and Ireland which states:
"In respect of pensions, a person may join the voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme of a Party, even if they are compulsorily subject to the legislation of the former Party because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or self-employed person and if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party."
The Eligibility Officer states that "Paragraph 12(4) above is the relevant piece as Irish legislation does not explicitly or implicitly allow overlapping between Ireland and the UK." but I feel this is not correct - what legislation is she referring to that does not explicitly or implicitly permit over-lapping? Para 12(4) seems clear to me that over-lapping is permitted, and The Consolidated Welfare Act says that voluntary contributors must no longer be employed or self-employed in the State, which I am not, and the Citizens Information website clearly states that as the UK is no longer in the EU, I can make voluntary contributions to my Irish State pension whilst working in a non-EU Country.
My understanding is that I can take this issue to the Ombudsman - is this correct? Do I need to wait for the Chief Appeals Officer to get back to me before I contact the Ombudsman? This issues is important to me as I am only 9 years away from State pension age.
Thanks!

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Can you paste verbatim the text of the response you got from DSP? It’s hard to follow with the formatted you've used. A picture perhaps might help.

From what you’ve written I think your logic is correct and DSP is wrong. The legislation implicitly permits overlapping because the only criterion is that you are not employed or self employed in the state or subject to compulsory social security in another EU country.

Do I need to wait for the Chief Appeals Officer to get back to me before I contact the Ombudsman?

I’ve never used the DSP appeals process but in principle you must exhaust the appeals process with a public body before taking you to the Ombudsman.

Another approach would be to ask a written parliamentary question to the minister for social protection via a TD on this point. If you like I can draft a question that should get an unambiguous answer.

 

[Early Riser]

- what legislation is she referring to that does not explicitly or implicitly permit over-lapping?

The Eligibility Officer is saying that there is no legislation that explicitly or implicitly permits over-lapping - not that there is legislation that forbids it.

This is in accord with the CTA agreement 12.4 which states "if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party".
It does not say "provided that such overlapping activity is not explicitly or implicitly forbidden". It does not require legislation to forbid it or disallow it. It does require legislation to allow it (explicitly or implicitly).

the Citizens Information website clearly states that as the UK is no longer in the EU, I can make voluntary contributions to my Irish State pension whilst working in a non-EU Country.

The Citizens Information website is guidance only and is not a commitment on behalf of the State. The page you refer to was last updated in Feb 2020 ,ie, before the CTA Agreement came into force. The CTA preserved/reinstated the same rights and conditions as pertained when the UK was still a member of the EU, ie,

You can choose to pay voluntary contributions (if you are under 66 and meet the other conditions) if you:

• Are no longer covered by compulsory PRSI in Ireland
• Are no longer covered by PRSI on a compulsory or voluntary basis in another EU country

I think for your appeal you need to come up with Irish legislation that explicitly or implicitly allows overlapping contributions in the UK (or EU) and Ireland.

 

[Mothergoose]

Thanks NoRegretsCoyote and EarlyRiser. NoRegretsCoyote attached is part of the letter from Client Eligibility Services that quotes S 12(4). If you think a parliamentary question would help - I would be grateful if you can suggest how I might appraohc it. EarlyRiser - I haven't a clue where I would come up with legislation that implicitly or explicitly permits over-lapping. The Consolidated Welfare Act seems to imply this as it mentions that voluntary contributors for pension puposes must no longer be employed or self-employed within the State. Is this enough though? Should I write back to this Eligibility Service Officer saying I disagree with her decision and am awaiting outcome of Chief Appeals Officer? I presume they work in tandem and will both come to the same conclusion.

 

[Mothergoose]

I can only see this in relation to voluntary contributions when not tax resident. in the Cosolidated Welfare Act, 2006. *A person who is regarded as not resident or not ordinarily resident in the State in accordance with the Income Tax Acts and whose reckonable income for that year does not include income to which Chapter 3 of Part 4, or Part 43, of the Act of 1997 applies.'

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

It does require legislation to allow it (explicitly or implicitly).

It is implicitly allowed if the following conditions hold: (1) contributions for pension purposes are allowed by one party (yes); (2) the legislation does not forbid it (in my view also yes).

The language above quoted by the deciding answer is incredibly sloppy and poorly reasoned. The paragraph from the Bilateral Agreement is correct but the following line makes no reference, general or specific, to the relevant Irish legislation. It also makes no logical sense as if the Irish legislation does not explicitly or implicitly allow for it then the same legislation would have to prohibit it and, to my knowledge, there is no such prohibition in Irish law. I could be wrong here of course.

I presume they work in tandem and will both come to the same conclusion.

I don't think so. They should make these decisions independently.


I would ask the following question:

To ask the Minister for Social Protection if there is any provision in Irish law that would disallow an individual from making voluntary PRSI contributions on the basis that the individual is currently resident and subject to compulsory social security in the United Kingdom (if all other criteria are satisfied), in particular by reference to Article 12(4) of the Convention on Social Security between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland, and if she will make a statement on the matter.

 

[Early Riser]

It also makes no logical sense as if the Irish legislation does not explicitly or implicitly allow for it then the same legislation would have to prohibit it and, to my knowledge, there is no such prohibition in Irish law. I could be wrong here of course.

I don't follow the rationale. Just because the legislation does not explicitly or implicitly allow for something it does not follow that the legislation would have to prohibit it. 12.4 only states "if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed".

Anyway, the CTA agreement reinstates the provisions that applied prior to the UK exiting the EU ("There will be no change to the shared social welfare arrangements between the UK and Ireland that are in place"). As there appears to be no doubt that it is not allowed to make voluntary contributions in Ireland when contributing to Social Insurance in another EU country I think it would require explicit or implicit provision to be made to allow an exception for the UK. The UK is treated like an EU/EEA member rather than a third country for Social Welfare purposes.

That is my take on it and I will leave it there. I gather the OP is planning to appeal to the Ombudsman who presumably will decide.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

I don't follow the rationale. Just because the legislation does not explicitly or implicitly allow for something it does not follow that the legislation would have to prohibit it. 12.4 only states "if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed".

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole either but I think logically you would need a prohibition on overlapping otherwise it would be implicitly allowed if the claimant satisfies the other conditions.

Anyway, the CTA agreement reinstates the provisions that applied prior to the UK exiting the EU ("There will be no change to the shared social welfare arrangements between the UK and Ireland that are in place"). As there appears to be no doubt that it is not allowed to make voluntary contributions in Ireland when contributing to Social Insurance in another EU country I think it would require explicit or implicit provision to be made to allow an exception for the UK. The UK is treated like an EU/EEA member rather than a third country for Social Welfare purposes.

I think you are flat wrong here. The bilateral convention on social security makes very clear that it follows in the line of bilateral UK-Ireland agreements signed between 1960 and 2004. It barely references the EU at all. The convention then goes on to say that:

(4) This Convention shall not apply to or affect rights and obligations arising under (a) any law on social security which is part of, made under or for the purpose of implementing, the law of the European Union;(b) the EEA Agreement;(c) the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement;

For social security purposes the Withdrawal Agreement only concerns EU citizens resident in the UK at the time of withdrawal 30 January 2020. The OP moved to the UK long after that so I can't see how it is relevant. Likewise EU law is irrelevant as the UK has left the EU.

 

[Early Riser]

For social security purposes the Withdrawal Agreement only concerns EU citizens resident in the UK at the time of withdrawal 30 January 2020. The OP moved to the UK long after that so I can't see how it is relevant. Likewise EU law is irrelevant as the UK has left the EU.

I don't know what you are getting at here. I have pointed out that the OP moved to the UK after 30th Jan 2020. It was after this that the Common Travel Area Social Security Agreement came into effect and it is the relevant agreement.

From NIDirect:

"There is a social security agreement between the UK and Ireland allowing existing reciprocal social security rights for UK and Irish citizens (and for certain family members and surviving family members) under the Common Travel Area (CTA) arrangements and law of the European Union to be protected following EU Exit.....

...When working in the CTA, you pay into only one state’s social security scheme at a time and are entitled, when in the other state, to the same social security rights, and are under the same obligations, as citizens of that state". https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/common-travel-area-and-social-security-benefits#toc-1

Also:
"Ireland and the United Kingdom agreed a Convention on Social Security under the Common Travel Area arrangements that also took effect on the 1 January 2021. Together these agreements ensure the continuation of the pre-existing arrangements in matters of Social Security between Ireland and the United Kingdom". https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/6f4f07-brexit/

And a reminder of the relevant Paragraph from the Agreement on voluntary contributions:

"4) In respect of pensions, a person may join the voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme of a Party, even if they are compulsorily subject to the legislation of the other Party, provided that they have been previously subject to the legislation of the former Party because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or self-employed person and if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party"

As I understand it, you interpretation is that such overlapping is implicitly allowed in Ireland on the basis that there is no explicit
legislation forbidding it. The Dept of Social Protection officials obviously disagree. To me their position seems correct. In any event that decision stands until, and if,@Mothergoose appeals it further. You and I are neither Ombudsman nor High Court (nor, in my case at least, a lawyer).

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Common Travel Area Social Security Agreement

There is no such thing. There is a bilateral convention on social security.

I am not sure why you are relying on the pretty generic statements on NI Direct and not on the very specific provisions of the bilateral convention and the Consolidated Social Welfare Acts.

Either way I hope @Mothergoose is successful and I'm sure she'll receive further support in this forum for any appeal.

 

[Early Riser]

...... Common Travel Area Social Security Agreement

There is no such thing. There is a bilateral convention on social security.

I didn't know we were operating in pedants corner but I suggest you correction but would also be very welcome by both the offices of the NI government and the government of Ireland. We cannot let these informalities stand! -

" There is a social security agreement between the UK and Ireland allowing existing reciprocal social security rights for UK and Irish citizens (and for certain family members and surviving family members) under the Common Travel Area (CTA) arrangements and law of the European Union to be protected following EU Exit." (NI Direct)

"A Trade and Cooperation Agreement containing a Protocol on Social Security governing the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom was also agreed, and took effect from the 1 January 2021 following the end of the transition period. Ireland and the United Kingdom agreed a Convention on Social Security under the Common Travel Area arrangements that also took effect on the 1 January 2021. Together these agreements ensure the continuation of the pre-existing arrangements in matters of Social Security between Ireland and the United Kingdom." (gov.ie).

I am not sure why you are relying on the pretty generic statements on NI Direct and not on the very specific provisions of the bilateral convention and the Consolidated Social Welfare Acts.

Notwithstanding the fact that I rely on the specific wording in Article 12, Para 4 from the Convention (on which we differ in interpretation and understanding), I shall take such advice very seriously as it comes from one who relies solely on the legal wording from legislation, treaties and international conventions, and never on generic advice! -

I'm not going to trawl through the Social Welfare Act but I'd be surprised if suspect Citizens' Information was incorrect on this topic:

I hope @Mothergoose is successful and I'm sure she'll receive further support in this forum for any appeal.

I wish @Mothergoose all the best for her appeal but I do not think my honest opinion is any less, or more, "supportive" than you opinion, even though your opinion concurs with hers. Are you suggesting that only cheerleading opinions are useful and differing opinions should be withheld? Would that be explicitly or implicitly?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

@Mothergoose

Have you had any news?

 

[Mothergoose]

I got a reply from the section dealing with it in Waterford who had originally refused me paying contributions to my Irish State pension while working in UKand they still to their guns that I couldn't make this contribution. I had written to the Chief Appeals Officer at the same time, and am waiting for them to gey back to me. I am not hopeful though that their decision will be any different.