Not allowed to contribute to Irish State Pension while living in the UK

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Mothergoose

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I have just had a letter from Dept. Social Protection stating that I am not permitted to contribute to my Irish Pension while living in the UK as they say I am covered by social insurance in another EU country, but the UK is no longer a member of the EU, and I was under the impression that I could still contribute to Irish pension from abroad. Am I correct?
 
The information you were given is correct. There is a bilateral agreement between the UK and Ireland in respect of social insurance, so the UK is treated the same as an EU member state.

If you move back to Ireland in the future, you will be able to combine your UK and Irish social insurance records when applying for a pension.

Combining social insurance contributions from abroad

Combining social insurance contributions paid in Ireland and abroad can help you qualify for a social welfare payment. Find out more.
www.citizensinformation.ie www.citizensinformation.ie
 
Thanks gipimann. My accountant was wrong so. He said I was entitled to make voluntary contributions to my Irish State pension whilst working abroad, as the UK was not a member of the EU. I found this on the Citizens advice website. 'If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions.'
 
Mothergoose said:
Thanks gipimann. My accountant was wrong so. He said I was entitled to make voluntary contributions to my Irish State pension whilst working abroad, as the UK was not a member of the EU. I found this on the Citizens advice website. 'If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions.'
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But Citizens Advice is a UK organisation. In Ireland we have Citizens Information!
 
Apologies. I meant to say Citizens Information Ireland. Here is what they say on their webiste:
ou can choose to pay voluntary contributions (if you are under 66 and meet the other conditions) if you:

  • Are no longer covered by compulsory PRSI in Ireland
  • Are no longer covered by PRSI on a compulsory or voluntary basis in another EU country
If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions.
 
Mothergoose said:
I have just had a letter from Dept. Social Protection stating that I am not permitted to contribute to my Irish Pension while living in the UK as they say I am covered by social insurance in another EU country, but the UK is no longer a member of the EU, and I was under the impression that I could still contribute to Irish pension from abroad. Am I correct?
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Are you paying Social/National Insurance in the UK? If so, you would be excluded :

"When working in the CTA, you pay into only one state’s social security scheme at a time and are entitled, when in the other state, to the same social security rights, and are under the same obligations, as citizens of that state."

The Common Travel Area and social security benefits

There is a social security agreement between the UK and Ireland allowing existing reciprocal social security rights for UK and Irish citizens (and for certain family members and surviving family members) under the Common Travel Area (CTA) arrangements and law of the European Union to be...
www.nidirect.gov.uk www.nidirect.gov.uk
 
Thanks for your reply. Early Riser. I'm still confused though - does the social security agreement in CTA cover just social security benefits e.g. illness benefit, JSA etc, or does it also cover contributions to pensions?
 
Mothergoose said:
Thanks for your reply. Early Riser. I'm still confused though - does the social security agreement in CTA cover just social security benefits e.g. illness benefit, JSA etc, or does it also cover contributions to pensions?
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My reading of this is that it also covers contributions:

"When working in the CTA, you pay into only one state’s social security scheme at a time"
 
Mothergoose said:
I am covered by social insurance in another EU country, but the UK is no longer a member of the EU,
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Did you make at least 520 contributions in Ireland? When was your last paid PRSI contribution?

Are you currently in paid employment in the UK or self employment?
 
Thanks for replies Eatlyriser and No Regrets Coyote. I have currently 1160 paid contributions in Ireland, excluding 6 years when I was a stay at home parent in Ireland from 2002 to 2008, so presume I will get some credits for this. I worked in the UK from 1995 to 2002, then moved back to Ireland. I left Ireland at end of March this year to work in UK as employee. When I moved vack to Ireland in 2001, I continued to pay voluntary pension contributions in UK, so have about 22 years of UK pension in total. I last paid prsi contribution in Ireland in March this year. I am 58.
 
Your question in the opening post has been answered.

What other information are you now seeking?
 
@Mothergoose

I don’t see why you can’t pay voluntary PRSI contributions. You satisfy the conditions namely under 66, >520 paid contributions made, not making contributions in another EU country, applied within five years of leaving Ireland. DSP and citizens information is pretty unambiguous on these points.

Appeal this with DSP and let us know how you get on.
 
Early Riser said:
My reading of this is that it also covers contributions:

"When working in the CTA, you pay into only one state’s social security scheme at a time"
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This can't be correct given the numbers here in Ireland making voluntary NI contributions in the UK.
 
llgon said:
This can't be correct given the numbers here in Ireland making voluntary NI contributions in the UK.
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Indeed I think it refers to compulsory contributions from for example self-employment income in both jurisdictions.

Not relevant to the OP who wants to make voluntary in Ireland and is making compulsory in UK.
 
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Early Riser said:
But just because the UK is allowing voluntary contributions from people simultaneously paying into social insurance abroad it doesn't necessarily follow that Ireland does - this is not covered by the Common Travel Convention on Social Welfare.
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I am not sure you are correct here.

Articles 9-11 of the Bilateral Convention (here) basically specify that a person is subject to social security rules in one jurisdiction or the other, depending on a number of criteria.

But Article 12(4) (see below) says that someone may if entitled make voluntary contributions in one jurisdiction in relation to pension if they are resident in the other jurisdiction once the legislation does not prohibit it.


Voluntary Insurance or Optional Continued Insurance

(1) Articles 9 to 11 shall not apply to voluntary insurance or to optional continued insurance.

(2) Subject to paragraph (4), where a person is subject to compulsory insurance in one Party by virtue of the legislation of that Party, they shall not be subject to a voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme in the other Party.

(3) If paragraph (2) does not apply and a person has, for the purpose of entitlement to a benefit, a choice between several voluntary or optional continued insurance schemes, they shall be entitled to pay contributions only under the legislation of one Party according to their choice.

(4) In respect of pensions, a person may join the voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme of a Party, even if they are compulsorily subject to the legislation of the other Party, provided that they have been previously subject to the legislation of the former Party because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or self-employed person and if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party.
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I can see no legislative prohibition that would apply in @Mothergoose 's case, see above.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
I am not sure you are correct here.

Articles 9-11 of the Bilateral Convention (here) basically specify that a person is subject to social security rules in one jurisdiction or the other, depending on a number of criteria.

But Article 12(4) (see below) says that someone may if entitled make voluntary contributions in one jurisdiction in relation to pension if they are resident in the other jurisdiction once the legislation does not prohibit it.




I can see no legislative prohibition that would apply in @Mothergoose 's case, see above.
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The best for @Mothergoose to submit an application. However, it depends on whether Ireland's legislation allows it:

"if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party" (ie, Ireland).
 
Early Riser said:
However, it depends on whether Ireland's legislation allows it:
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I'm not going to trawl through the Social Welfare Act but I'd be surprised if suspect Citizens' Information was incorrect on this topic:

You can choose to pay voluntary contributions (if you are under 66 and meet the other conditions) if you:

  • Are no longer covered by compulsory PRSI in Ireland
  • Are no longer covered by PRSI on a compulsory or voluntary basis in another EU country
If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions.
Click to expand...

The UK is unambiguously not an EU country anymore.

Early Riser said:
The best for @Mothergoose to submit an application.
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It seems @Mothergoose already had an application rejected so she should probably consider an appeal using the information on this thread.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
I'm not going to trawl through the Social Welfare Act but I'd be surprised if suspect Citizens' Information was incorrect on this topic:



The UK is unambiguously not an EU country anymore.



It seems @Mothergoose already had an application rejected so she should probably consider an appeal using the information on this thread.
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You may well be right. However, that Citizens Information page was last updated in February 2020. The UK-Irish Convention came into effect on 31st December, 2020. It effectively agrees that conditions on Social Security will apply as if the UK were an EU country. Whether this extends to the rules for making voluntary contributions in Ireland while simultaneously working and contributing to Social Security in the UK I don't know.
 
Early Riser said:
Whether this extends to the rules for making voluntary contributions in Ireland while simultaneously working and contributing to Social Security in the UK I don't know.
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Well I went and looked up the Consolidated Social Welfare Act. It only says voluntary contributors must no longer be employed or self employed in the state.

Within the EU there is the Social Security Coordination Regulation which says (Articles 11-14) that basically you can only be subject to social security of one EU member state at a time and it's usually your member state of residence. But as of January 2021 of course this no longer applies as the UK is not an EU member state.

The UK-Ireland Bilateral Convention (as above) has the same principles basically that you are only subject to one social security regime, usually the country of residence. But Article 12(4) introduces a very clear exception whereby if entitled, you can make voluntary social insurance contributions in the other country if the legislation of the first country permits (or doesn't explicitly forbid) it.

IANAL but the logical conclusion here is that I think the OP is entitled to make voluntary PRSI contributions while resident in the UK.

@Brendan Burgess - this is straying a bit from the original question and might be better off as a key post with the title "Post-Brexit can someone living and working in the UK make voluntary PRSI contributions?"
 
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