Nightsaver house + smart meter -> nightsaver tariff eligibility?

[ClubMan]

I live in an urban "nightsaver" house - i.e. one with storage heaters and immersion that operate overnight.
Up to recently I had a day/night nightsaver meter - i.e. one with separate day/night unit readings.
I have always been on, and currently remain on, a nightsaver tariff with different day/night unit rates - higher in the day and lower at night.
This always made sense as up to 50% of my total electricity usage is at night so the lower night rate helped to cut costs.

ESB Networks/Circet recently replaced my nightsaver meter with a smart meter.
My existing nightsaver tariff with Flogas is unaffected.
But if/when I decide to shop around am I eligible to opt for nightsaver tariffs that many providers still offer?
Or are they only available to those who remain on an actual physical nightsaver meter and the only options available to me are standard 24 hour flat rate tariffs or smart meter tariffs?
As far as I can see both will be much more expensive than the nightsaver tariffs that I have been on up to now!

When shopping around most providers get you to input your MPRN and from that they detect what sort of meter you have - nightsaver day/night rate, 24 hour/flat rate or smart meter.
Does the introduction of smart meters mean that nightsaver users like myself are going to be penalised?
Of is it a case of calling them to explain that I'm on a smart meter but would like to opt for a nightsaver tariff?

 

[Sue Ellen]

Just trying to figure it out, and may not a helpful answer, but does the fact that you can stay on a non-Smart plan if you choose, solve the problem? Have seen people on AAM mention recently that they were quite surprised to find after crunching the numbers that the Smart plan rate worked out cheaper for them.

If you were to play around with www.energypal.ie could you get a handle on how much you would pay if you switched. You can use the option to input your own figures and play around with that.

 

[elcato]

Interesting question. I am in the process of changing my supplier and had the smart meter installed this week. I applied for the nightsaver with EI and gave them the new readings (which were starting from 0). I was initially confused and thought my readings were missing but I rang ESB networks and explained and she put me right on the readings. She didn't mention anything about not changing to another nightsaver rate in a different company and given that she gave me my last readings from the old meter she would/may have known. I'll update this thread as I get info.

 

[ClubMan]

Just trying to figure it out, and may not a helpful answer, but does the fact that you can stay on a non-Smart plan if you choose, solve the problem? Have seen people on AAM mention recently that they were quite surprised to find after crunching the numbers that the Smart plan rate worked out cheaper for them.

I can stay on my current nightsaver tariff but I want to know what my options are when I decide to shop around and move - in fact my fixed rate Flogas nightsaver tariff is now not competitive so I want to switch now (even after t he €50 penalty I am likely to save). But I don't know if my options include currently available nightsaver tariffs or only flat rate 24 hour tariffs and actual smart plans?

If you were to play around with www.energypal.ie could you get a handle on how much you would pay if you switched. You can use the option to input your own figures and play around with that.

I only have a few days of data so that's not really of any use yet.

 

[ClubMan]

Interesting question.

I actually assumed that it was a dumb question that would have been raised and answered already but when I went looking (here and elsewhere) I couldn't find anything. All that the leaflets that I received in advance of the smart meter installation said was "your current tariff/contract is not affected". They didn't say anything about what happens going forward and if nightsaver tariffs would remain an option for erstwhile nightsaver meter users.

I am in the process of changing my supplier and had the smart meter installed this week. I applied for the nightsaver with EI and gave them the new readings (which were starting from 0).

How did you give them day and night readings when the smart meter just lists a single kW(h?) figure as far as I can see? Ditto with online access to the smart meter data as far as I have been able to tell.

I was initially confused and thought my readings were missing but I rang ESB networks and explained and she put me right on the readings. She didn't mention anything about not changing to another nightsaver rate in a different company and given that she gave me my last readings from the old meter she would/may have known. I'll update this thread as I get info.

That's interesting and hopefully promising. I will call Energia on Monday (nobody there today) to ask them because at the moment their nightsaver tariff looks like the most competitive for my use. I haven't checked out smart plans because I don't have sufficient data yet and at a glance they look much more expensive than nightsaver tariffs.

 

[jpd]

The smart meters record the electricity used every 30 minutes, so it is possible to know consumption on an time basis

 

[ClubMan]

The smart meters record the electricity used every 30 minutes, so it is possible to know consumption on an time basis

I know - but that doesn't answer my question which is - can a smart meter user opt for any of (a) a nightsaver tariff (b) a 24 hour flat rate tariff or (c) a smart plan tariff - or are they eligible only for (b) or (c)?

Nightsaver tariffs are basically a form of proto smart plan albeit based on a dual day/night meter with a timer to switch between the two. So technically a smart meter would be well able to handle the same metering. But the question is are nightsaver tariffs still available to smart meter users or only to those who still remain on physical nightsaver day/night meters?

I would like to stick with a nightsaver tariff because, from what I've seen, comparable smart plans with time based unit rates (including a lower night rate) use unit rates significantly higher than the "legacy" nightsaver tariffs.

Maybe when my smart meter has had time to collect sufficient data I'll be able to find a better smart plan but at the moment I would like to stick with nightsaver tariffs if possible. The question is, is it?

 

[S class]

I currently have a nightsaver meter. At the moment if I am offered a smart meter, I will refuse to accept it. I will be very interested to see what happens to you Clubman.

Did you previously have a storage heating meter arrangement, or just a nightsaver meter set up ?

The storage heating set up has llower standing charges but must be separately wired from the meter time switch and doesn't allow your general domestic electricity to be at night rate.

I presume they have removed your meter time switch.
In my set up I use the meter time switch to switch a contactor to feed certain appliances, to ensure that they only operate at night rate.

If my meter time switch was removed I would need to have work carried out to switch my contactor by other means.

 

[ClubMan]

I currently have a nightsaver meter. At the moment if I am offered a smart meter, I will refuse to accept it. I will be very interested to see what happens to you Clubman.

I accepted it on the understanding that (a) it would not affect my tariff options (but I hadn't thought it through to my options when shopping around next time!) (b) it's not my property anyway so I presume that they can do what they want with it especially since it's externally accessible and (c) if I refused it now then they might charge me a fee when they decided that it had to be replaced later...

Did you previously have a storage heating meter arrangement, or just a nightsaver meter set up ?
The storage heating set up has llower standing charges but must be separately wired from the meter time switch and doesn't allow your general domestic electricity to be at night rate.

I only ever had a nightsaver day/night meter with everything in the house (in particular the storage heaters and immersion) using night rate units at night (23:00-08:00/00:00-09:00 winter/summer) and day units otherwise. I never had a storage heater meter which switched the storage heaters only to night rate units.

I presume they have removed your meter time switch.
In my set up I use the meter time switch to switch a contactor to feed certain appliances, to ensure that they only operate at night rate.
If my meter time switch was removed I would need to have work carried out to switch my contactor by other means.

I don't understand - I presume that whatever did the switching between the day and night metering in the nightsaver meter was built into the nightsaver meter and now that it has been removed and replaced by the smart meter the switching mechanism is gone too? In any case even with a separate timer the unit rate will presumably be dictated by the smart meter and the selected tariff in operation?

 

[S class]

I don't understand - I presume that whatever did the switching between the day and night metering in the nightsaver meter was built into the nightsaver meter and now that it has been removed and replaced by the smart meter the switching mechanism is gone too? In any case even with a separate timer the unit rate will presumably be dictated by the smart meter and the selected tariff in operation?

The set up in my house uses a separate large time switch to switch the dual tariff meter between day and night. It was installed about 30 years ago. Mabye the timing mechanism is built in to more modern day and night meters.

 

[ClubMan]

The set up in my house uses a separate large time switch to switch the dual tariff meter between day and night. It was installed about 30 years ago. Mabye the timing mechanism is built in to more modern day and night meters.

Wouldn't that be liable to tampering such as using the lower cost meter outside of the official hours?

 

[S class]

The time switch is supplied by Electric Networks and has a seal to prevent tampering.

 

[ClubMan]

The time switch is supplied by Electric Networks and has a seal to prevent tampering.

Ah, ok. I misunderstood this as you having installed the timer yourself...

In my set up I use the meter time switch to switch a contactor to feed certain appliances, to ensure that they only operate at night rate.

If my meter time switch was removed I would need to have work carried out to switch my contactor by other means.

 

[lff12]

I actually assumed that it was a dumb question that would have been raised and answered already but when I went looking (here and elsewhere) I couldn't find anything. All that the leaflets that I received in advance of the smart meter installation said was "your current tariff/contract is not affected". They didn't say anything about what happens going forward and if nightsaver tariffs would remain an option for erstwhile nightsaver meter users.

How did you give them day and night readings when the smart meter just lists a single kW(h?) figure as far as I can see? Ditto with online access to the smart meter data as far as I have been able to tell.

That's interesting and hopefully promising. I will call Energia on Monday (nobody there today) to ask them because at the moment their nightsaver tariff looks like the most competitive for my use. I haven't checked out smart plans because I don't have sufficient data yet and at a glance they look much more expensive than nightsaver tariffs.

Smart meters still do day/night tariffs. My guess is that the OP would still be allowed to remain on an urban nightsaver meter (as it happens I'm in a similar position - except the home's storage heaters were all broken when I bought the house, but I do my best to utilise energy at night wherever possible). I suppose the bigger question might be if someone who previously had a 24hr rate would now be able to change to day/night tariffs given that the meter can handle any kind if time of day oriented meter?

 

[lff12]

The set up in my house uses a separate large time switch to switch the dual tariff meter between day and night. It was installed about 30 years ago. Mabye the timing mechanism is built in to more modern day and night meters.

That's a very specific setup to cater for night storage heaters - not sure if plans for them still exist but basically they wire into specific circuits at the fusebox and on to the meter - at one point there were specific plans where there was a triple rate that only catered for storage heaters - BG still have it on their site as the "night storage tariff" - and I think you actually had an additional meter wired to the internal fusebox and specific circuits for the storage heaters.

 

[S class]

The set up I have is not for storage heaters. Its nightsaver.
The meter has a day and night meter display.
The seperate timeswitch switches between the two meter displays.

 

[Towger]

Theis has been discussed at length on another well known form. My understanding is there is an issue with Nightsaver and Smart meters. It probably should never have been installed.

 

[AJAM]

A lot of speculation on this topic, by people just guessing.

Having a "Smart" meter does not force you into 1 specific smart plan.
If you look at, for example, the Energia website, you will see that all customers, with a smart meter (new and old) can currently choose between 3 different plans. Smart Data, Smart Drive Smart 24

	Smart Data	Smart 24 hour	Smart Drive
Night	16.31	29.03	7.54**
Day	30.47	29.03	33.86
Peak	31.94	29.03	N/A

**Note Smart Drive plan night rate is only for 4 hours from 2-6am.

Previously the type of meter you had, determined the type of plan you could have. With a smart meter that is no longer the case. You can shop around between different plans and between different providers to find the one that best suits you.
On top of this providers also allow you to stay on your legacy plan if that is what you prefer.

 

[ClubMan]

Apologies - I meant to post back before now.

Executive overview - there's no issue after all and I can still avail of nightsaver tariffs.

In more detail...

Even though the smart meter was installed it's still treated as if it was a nightsaver meter (albeit now "smart meter capable"). It's still listed on my bill as MCC02 which I believe is "urban day/night nightsaver" meter. I didn't realise that the yellow button on the meter can cycle between screens in order to show the night ("T1") and day ("T2") meter readings. I was afraid to press anything on the new meter in case I messed something up! Only if/when I enable smart services will it actually become a "real" smart meter and thereafter only smart tariffs will be available to me.

I have now switched from the erstwhile competitve - but no longer so - Flogas fixed rate community plan to Energia's nightsaver tariff (which worked out as the cheapest for my usage profile - c. 5,000 kWh units p.a. with c. 50% at night) and it was all painless in the end. Maybe over the next year when I have more detailed HDF data from the smart meter via ESB Networks I can make a more informed decision using http://www.energypal.ie on whether or not to enable the smart services and opt for smart tariffs.

Thanks everybody for the comments/suggestions.

 

[elcato]

I also changed my supplier at the end of last month and am successfully still on the Night saver (non smart plan). Thanks for the links above. I'll revisit myself accordingly.