New controls on landlords & rental properties

T

Tommy

Guest
New controls on landlords & rental properties

-after reading in fridays newspaper the new legislation coming in next year that restict landlords in obtaining possesion of the property as well as dealing with yahoo tenants, i believe that any investment in this area needs plenty of careful consideration-rent increases it seems will be restricted to market value and once a tenant is in for 6 months it will be difficult to get your property back within 4 years-yes thats FOUR years !!!
-new govt housing boards will be interfering and generally adding to the hassle factor in these type of investment-putting up with bad tenants for 1 yr. is way too long in my view, 4 yrs forget it-add in capital gains taxes, legal fees, cleaning up after filthy tenants, repairs due to carelessness and negligent tenants all add up to an unattractive investment-left wing housing groups seem to be having it all there own way-what with interest rates going up and the possibity of capital gains going up sometime in the future who would be bothered with all of this when you can find a nice managed fund and draw an income hassle free-property investors beware!!!-its going to get worse -think before buying!
 
A renters view

Its about time these sort of measures were put into law. Being able to obtain a long-term lease is something that is quiet common in most European countries. Ireland has long needed such measures. I see no reason why a landlord would have a problem with having a well behaved long-term tenant, other than they wont be able to sell the property at a whim. Careful vetting of potential tenants at the start of any lease period should ensure a landlord will not have any future problems with the tenant. Stopping exorbitant rent hikes is another good thing.
 
Reply to a Renter

-good tenants are indeed valuable-most property is not sold on a whim and if it was the case so what?
-if it is my property it is mine not someone else's -i suggest you need to respect private property more-as for european laws on renting there would be more property on the market if there was more protection for the owners-look what happened in britain when they had anti landlord / investor legislation-the investors fled-not all tenants want to live in corpo housing you know-renting in the private area is a privilege not a right!!
-as for rent increases if a tenant is good i give very modest increases -i have no plans to invest again because of these new changes
 
Glad youre not my landlord

Quote:

“-most property is not sold on a whim and if it was the case so what?”

If you have a good tenant renting from you, selling the property on a whim is going to cause serious difficulties for that tenant, not to mention that fact that you are probably breaking a lease contract. Landlords sometimes forget that they are effectively running a business with the tenant their customer. I’m sure you wouldn’t take the same view if the Bank (the real owners of most investment properties) decided to call in the mortgage on your property on a whim even though you had been making regular repayments.

Quote:
“renting in the private area is a privilege not a right!!”

I’m sure your tenants will be pleased to hear how privileged they are. Oh what lucky people!

What do other property investors make of these up coming laws? Will investors sell their investments before the laws come into force? Will it discourage them from buying more property?
 
"new legislation coming"

Missed the article reffered to in first post, can anyone point me to info on this new legislation or a link to the article?

Thanks.
 
new legislation

-it was in fridays independent i believe-much to be concerned about!!
 
Report

The following is from MyHome.ie and I have added a link to the report on the private rental sector.

Details published in the Programme for Government yesterday include a number of commitments with regard to housing. The programme describes the implementation of a "multi-stranded approach to addressing housing needs right across the spectrum".

The main features include -

A commitment to expand various social housing programmes

Assisting the voluntary housing sector so that the target of 4,000 accommodation units per annum envisaged under the National Development Plan can be reached.

The implementation of a full package of reforms in rented accommodation sector, arising from the report of the Commission on the Private Rented Sector.

The extension of the Serviced Land Initiative, to make more efficient use of housing land and make further Special Development Zone designations as required.

The implementation of the comprehensive Homelessness Strategies now in place.

The provision of Housing Advice Services through the local authority system. Advice will be provided information on all the housing options and supports will be available to the public.

A review of procedures for dealing with insubstantial planning appeals.

A review of the operation of the Planning and Development Act to ensure that it is meeting the objectives for which it was enacted with particular reference to social and affordable housing.

The implementation of a new approach to urban renewal based on the combined use of Compulsory Purchase Orders and Public Private Partnerships.

The Government will also consider the introduction of legislation to regulate the establishment and operation of apartment complex management companies. The document also promises the compilation of a National Public Property Register to identify properties in state control suitable for housing projects.

Wednesday 5 June 2002

The following link will bring you to report of the Commission on the Private Rented Sector.
http://www.environ.ie/pdf/rentsummary.pdf (www.environ.ie/pdf/rentsummary.pdf)
 
glad your not my tenant

-if i have a right to private property, perhaps i can live in your house then
-your landlord must consider you a real treasure!
 
living up to the cliche

Just the sort of attitude that gives landlords a bad rep in this country. The points made about security of tenure within a lease agreement are perfectly valid. As bearish pointed out; if the bank decided to treat your mortgage contract with such casual abandon, you'd have concerns.

The rental sector in this country is plagued with short-term and exploititive greed. It wouldn't hurt to import some of the mature rental/lease culture from the continent. Fair contracts needn't be at the expense of profit. The business is nothing to do with privilege, and to admit to thinking so is ludicrous.
 
living up to the cliche

-what cliche?-
-so if a landlord gives a standard lease for 12 months and this is agreed by both parties one party can stay there for 4 yrs !!! regardless?
-the mortgage is subject to terms and conditions too i.e. a contract -it is a legal contract is it not?
-after having had tenants who managed to put holes in doors, flood bathrooms,have pit bull terriers for pets and some who were late in rent 9 out of 12 months i can tell you I am sceptical that many landlords would continue to invest
-is housing a right? do people have a right to live in other people's houses?
-in other words if you rent out a room in your house you would be happy to recognise that the tenant has a right to private property ( yours!!!!!) for 4 yrs
-rgds
 
clarity

-what cliche?-
The well known one about the exploititive, self serving, short term profiteering Irish landlord? Surely you have encountered this?

-so if a landlord gives a standard lease for 12 months and this is agreed by both parties one party can stay there for 4 yrs !!! regardless?

My reading of the document indicates that the landlord may terminate the lease agreement if the tenant abuses the property, or if the landlord is selling the propeerty. I don't see how good long term tenants in a situation where the propertty isn't up for resale, is any imposition.

-the mortgage is subject to terms and conditions too i.e. a contract -it is a legal contract is it not?

Yes, we are in agreement there. You wouldn't expect your mortgage lender to foreclose/change the terms of your loan on a whim, so why expect a tenant to do so?

-after having had tenants who managed to put holes in doors, flood bathrooms,have pit bull terriers for pets and some who were late in rent 9 out of 12 months i can tell you I am sceptical that many landlords would continue to invest

Have you read the document? No landlord is expected to endure tenants who damage property.

-is housing a right? do people have a right to live in other people's houses?

Do you have a right to live in your house pending full payment of your mortgage? Why should a tenant expect less of their contract with a landlord? It certainly isn't a 'privilege' to enter into a business arrangement. It's a transaction with obligations and responsibilities on both sides.

-in other words if you rent out a room in your house you would be happy to recognise that the tenant has a right to private property ( yours!!!!!) for 4 yrs

As Bearish points out, it's usually the bank's property, but I sense you would be happier with the status quo, where tenancy terms are perpetually short term, and at the mercy of a benevolent dictatorship from one party to the commercial transaction. Presently if someone decides they don't want to enter into home ownership, but rather rent, they are given an extremely raw deal. I suspect you wouldn't willingly sign up for the cost and conditions applied to leased accomodation in this country at present. Would you? I know I wouldn't, but in a legislated environment like on the continent, it is a viable option, and one that supports many more tenancy's than here. Perhaps continental landlords' eyes are on the long term security of their arrangement, rather than obsessed with reaffirming their private ownership?

I just don't see a legitimate cause for concern with this proposed legislation. Long overdue in my view.

-rgds
 
Re: clarity

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't see how good long term tenants in a situation where the property isn't up for resale, is any imposition.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Exactly. So in my view this legislation is not required by "good long term tenants" as they are highly desirable but is open to a lot of abuse by unscrupulous tenants.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Perhaps continental landlords' eyes are on the long term security of their arrangement, rather than obsessed with reaffirming their private ownership?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Continental landlords are extremely fussy in choosing tenants for their property making rental under the favourable circumstances you refer to available only to very good tenants in long-term employment with stable banking records. Tenants on short term contracts, with short credit histories, etc end up paying way over the odds as landlords renting property to these categories of tenants charge higher rents to make up for the risk they believe is involved in dealing with such rentals. Part of the perceived risk (on the part of landlords) is that such tenants may use legal mechanisms to avoid paying rent or vacating the premises. Private ownership is alive and well on the continent....such landlords don't exist because they have some glorified notion of housing the masses. They exist to make money, just like here.

tedd
 
more clarity

oh my! -the poor renter!
30% of them on social welfare and close to 90%of rent paid by the tax payer
-curious to see how many are cohabiting?
-the only time i saw a mortgage foreclosure was abroad when the house owner decided to not pay anyone and lost his house!
Shame on those terrible bailiffs!
-saw one tenant advice site with a picture of michael davitt, pax christie and the labour party-objective eh?
2 grown people can't decide on a contract for 12 months then? -you would want explanations after the contract ends
-i have rented in 3 countries, none were cheap!

I just can't see a pensioner who has invested in property for his retirement going down to a housing board and telling them he doesn't want to renew the lease as there appears to be anti social behaviour from the tenant, or the house is wrecked, or there is cohabiting when collectiong rent allowance ie fraud

I prefer the north american model and not the european model on private housing( it can vary from state and province)-i guess you forgot to mention the speed debtors are dealt with throughout north america
I wonder why big business ie property companies don't go in to residential lettings?
If there is so much money in it why aren't they lining up to invest-Go figure it out!
Quote
"exploitative" " benevolent dictatorship"
-as you have appeared to have insulted every decent irish property investor, i suggest the private sector is not for you.
I think on this final point we will agree to disagree and move on
-rgds
 
touchy

oh my! -the poor renter!
Never said that. I said the current legislation was unfairly biased towards landlords. The absence of a long lease culture in this country is evidence of that.


30% of them on social welfare and close to 90%of rent paid by the tax payer
your point being?

-curious to see how many are cohabiting?
again, the relevence?

-the only time i saw a mortgage foreclosure was abroad when the house owner decided to not pay anyone and lost his house!
Shame on those terrible bailiffs!

Perhaps you missed my point. You wouldn't enter into a short term and tenious contract with your mortgage lender, but you expect a tenant to do so? Short term leases without any security of tenure may suit some renters, but I'd hazard that there are a significant number who wish for some different arrangement, and these people should be a fair crack of the whip.


-saw one tenant advice site with a picture of michael davitt, pax christie and the labour party-objective eh?

Oh dear. Not very constructive . It matters not a whit what the political orientation of any tenancy lobbyists is. The case for revised legislation stands on it's own merits.


2 grown people can't decide on a contract for 12 months then? -you would want explanations after the contract ends
-i have rented in 3 countries, none were cheap!

Who is arguing for 'cheap' leases? Did i miss something?

I just can't see a pensioner who has invested in property for his retirement going down to a housing board and telling them he doesn't want to renew the lease as there appears to be anti social behaviour from the tenant, or the house is wrecked, or there is cohabiting when collectiong rent allowance ie fraud

Why not? If there is a dispute, why not take advantage of a standard arbitration process? and when did the typical profile of a landlord become a seemingly feeble and intimidated old age pensioner?

I prefer the north american model and not the european model on private housing( it can vary from state and province)-i guess you forgot to mention the speed debtors are dealt with throughout north america

I didn't forget anything. The legislation clearly indicates any breach of lease agreement as a default on any contract, and allows for eviction. I'm not supporting bad tenants. I'm not sure why you would think I am.

I wonder why big business ie property companies don't go in to residential lettings?

The obvious reasons; too many hassles, too much admin, and less profit?

If there is so much money in it why aren't they lining up to invest-Go figure it out!
Quote
"exploitative" " benevolent dictatorship"
-as you have appeared to have insulted every decent irish property investor, i suggest the private sector is not for you.

Can you honestly claim that the present state of affairs is fair to those who chose to rent? Am I the only one who has seen repeated instances of perfectly good tenants moved on for greedy motives by landlords. Or completely unwarranted jumps in rental costs on no more basis than pure greed? There is a difference between the legitimate pursuit of profit within a commercial enterprise, and the wholesale exploitation of those without legislative recourse.
I'm not claiming this of all property investors. 'Decent' landlords shouldn't have any issue with my comments. Just as you focus on the bad apple tenants, I'm referring to the landlords who abuse the lack of any legislation in support of tenants.

I think on this final point we will agree to disagree and move on
-rgds
 
Rentals

One of the problems with the private rented sector is the apartment blocks where each apartment is owned by a separete landlord. Granted, some investors may own more than one unit.

My own experience of this activity is that most investors just want to take their rent and are not interested in the long term success of the development. Hence, they refuse to pay service charges, with the obvious effect on the site. Yes, you could say the mgt company should pursue them thru' the courts, but that is not economically viable. So the place ends up as somewhere where they are happy to own and rent out an apartment, but would never live in.

Some of the apartment develpments around Dublin are quickly turning into eyesores, and will probably end up having to be knocked down in years to come.

The solution to this is for the Govt to set up a series of tax incentives to encourage property investment companies to own, manage , and lease apartment blocks, and multiple housing units (admittedly this is more complex than apartment blocks, but not impossible). And also discourage individual investors, although, in a free society, people should be still entitled to do it if they so wish.

The advantages would be:
1. Apartment blocks would be maintained properly, because it would be in the interest of the owners to do so;
2. Companies would have a long term interest, and would therefore be more inclined to consider long-term leases;
3. Tax collection on rents would be more effective (don't try to convince me that all landlords declare all rental income, because they do not);
4. If structured properly, there could even be some restriction on rent increases.
 
Re: Rent

Hi I have been following this tread and wish to make a few points:
First of all I am not a landlord and therefore hve no conflict of interest.
If the tenant is good the landlord will not want to get rid of him/her.
If they enter into a contract for 12 months then it should expire at the end of 12 months unless they BOTH agree otherwise.
The contract is a business agreement the landlord agrees to provide and the tenant agrees to pay for it.
In any business you can decide that at the end of a contract whether or not you wish to do business with that person again.
I feel it is wrong to force a business person to do business with another person after the period of the contract is over and also that the length of this contract should be decided by anyone other than the two individuals themselves.

Spiderman: "If structured properly, there could even be some restriction on rent increases."
why should anyone other than the businessman himself decide what a business charges for his goods/services and what rate of increase he should get.
An earlier poster mentioned about selling property willy nilly surely if they own the property they should be able to sell it whenever they want.
 
Rent

"why should anyone other than the businessman himself decide what a business charges for his goods/services and what rate of increase he should get."

Beacuse we are talking about housing here, and housing is a fundamental right that should be subject to some degree of price control. (Up the revolution!!)
Seriously, though, many (socialist) European countries have controls over rent increase which afford protection to tenants. The result is that property companies can and do make money (not huge amounts, admittedly), and tenants can and do spend long periods, sometimes their entire lives, in rented accomodation.
 
Re: re re rent

Hi Spiderman - I'm not sure that they're is any real need for price regulation in the rental market. Really, the Govt should pull out of the market by removing mortgage interest relief for property investors. This would let the market decide it's own rates in a free market environment.

I think anecdotal evidence shows that rental prices are stabilising (if not dropping slightly) and even NoelC's comment about generously paying the refuse charges shows that the Shylock landlords of the past are a dying breed.

Regards - RainyDay
 
Re: re re rent

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--> the Govt should pull out of the market by removing mortgage interest relief for property investors. This would let the market decide it's own rates in a free market environment.<!--EZCODE BOLD END-->

The govt tried this, on the advice of Peter Bacon, in Spring 1998. The result - stagnation in the rental property market, shortages of rental accomodation, and disastrous rent increases for tenants as a result - Problems that are only now being alleviated by the recent repeal of the 1998 legislation.

I don't think we want to go down that road again...

Tommy
www.mcgibney.com
 
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