Martin Callinan resigns

[michaelm]

I appreciate that, though michaelm seems to have a different take.

This quote from the GSOC report clarifies the legal position concisely . .

"The court held that the practice engaged in by the gardaí at Waterford Garda Station of recording all incoming and outgoing calls on a particular phone line was in breach of the relevant statute on the recording of telephone communications, which requires that at least one of the parties to a phone call has consented to its being recorded".

 

[Sunny]

Now why didn't Shatter just issue that apology weeks ago. Nothing has changed apart from greater political pressure so I wouldn't blame the whistleblowers telling him what he can do with his apology. We need to move on from this and at this stage the only that is possible is if Shatter resigns and goes back to writing erotic novels.

 

[cork]

We need to move on from this and at this stage the only that is possible is if Shatter resigns and goes back to writing erotic novels.

What disappoints me is that Labour and FG still have confidence in him.

Shatter should resign asap.

Leo V seems to be the only one in FG with courage.

Enda Kenny has also dropped in my estimation.

 

[Sunny]

Enda Kenny has also dropped in my estimation.

When was he ever up in your estimation?

 

[cork]

When was he ever up in your estimation?

point taken. (never his no.1 fan)

The 2 whistleblowers deserve support.

Time they got some form of recognition.

2 people of courage.

 

[Purple]

Shatter is, in many ways, an excellent minister. He has taken on his own former profession and is an excellent legislator. If there was a suitable replacement I'd be all for him resigning but the prospect of another former school teacher or publican taking over his portfolio is depressing. From the very little I see of him he seems to be opinionated and arrogant but he's also very intelligent and very capable. In many ways I'd hate to see him go.
I wonder what John O'Donohoe would have done if he was minister?
I also find it a bit rich to hear FF, the people who epitomise the nod and wink culture that has bedevilled this country for generations, and the Shinners, who are happy to support those that murdered members of the Gardai, elbowing each other out of the way to take the high moral ground on this issue.
I don't like Alan Shatter but maybe that's a good thing; he's there to legislate, not be liked.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You've got the wrong end of the stick Duke. The legal position is that it is illegal to record without the explicit consent of either party, i.e. one party can be recorded without giving consent, as in your example of the Garda taking notes of a conversation. In this case the issue is that the Garda was also unaware that the conversation was being recorded - thus making the recording illegal.

Thanks for that. That makes the "scandal" oh so more trivial. So it is ok for a Garda to tape a conversation unbeknownst to the other side as long as she, the Garda, approves. But if this process is automated so that the Garda doesn't have to waste time filling out the forms then we have a technical breach. I think someone in the technical group called this stazi behaviour. Let's get real here.

 

[Sunny]

Thanks for that. That makes the "scandal" oh so more trivial. So it is ok for a Garda to tape a conversation unbeknownst to the other side as long as she, the Garda, approves. But if this process is automated so that the Garda doesn't have to waste time filling out the forms then we have a technical breach. I think someone in the technical group called this stazi behaviour. Let's get real here.

That's not the concern. The main concern is that privileged phone calls between suspects and their legal representatives were recorded which could have a huge impact on convictions or future cases even if the recordings weren't used. Guess we will see what comes out with the Ian Bailey case.

 

[cork]

Odd how nieher FG, Labour or Shatter explained why the letter from Callinan took so long to reach Shatter

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Slightly off topic but a Q&A about phone recordings is in today's IT. It reiterates the points made in this thread but something bothers me.

It's those statements by companies that they are recording "for training purposes". The Q&A states that if the punter doesn't hang up that amounts to tacit consent. But here's what bothers me; consent is only needed from one party to the conversation, why is the consent of the punter needed?

And I think I got the answer later on in the Q&A. Under Data Protection law you can only record a conversation for specific purposes and can only retain that recording for as long as those specific purposes still hold.

So there you have it "for training purposes" is a specific purpose and since the company will always have a need for training then the recording can be held indefinitely. Come to think of it, how exactly are recorded messages used for "training purposes".

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with these conversations being recorded but the "for training purposes" looks to me like a ruse to get round silly laws. It's rather like those TV telephone raffles where they need a quiz questions designed to get round the gambling laws like "is the capital of Ireland, A. Dublin, B. Moscow or C. Beijing, phone calls will cost €1 a minute".

 

[Ceist Beag]

how exactly are recorded messages used for "training purposes".

Easy - they can be used to show how to handle/not to handle customer complaints, e.g. "this is an example of how not to deal with an angry customer, listen to how John gets involved and responds to an abusive comment from the customer with an abusive reply of his own".

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Easy - they can be used to show how to handle/not to handle customer complaints, e.g. "this is an example of how not to deal with an angry customer, listen to how John gets involved and responds to an abusive comment from the customer with an abusive reply of his own".

I'm sure a bit of that goes on to justify the charade. Seems a fairly elaborate system to put in place merely for the purposes of training.

Please don't tell me that if a punter complains to the bank manager that "she told me I would get 10% interest" that they don't have a sneaky listen to the recorded conversation and don't tell me that this is not the main purpose for keeping these recordings, a practice which I fully sympathise with.

The practice of telephone recordings in financial services is now de rigueur - did you listen to the Anglo Tapes? - and the reason is obvious and it's not for training purposes.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Absolutely Duke, am with you on that alright. Don't companies like Eircom use recorded conversations as contractual agreement when someone agrees over the phone to a 12 month contract, so certainly the benefits to a company of recording phone conversations is much more than 'training' as you say. But as you also say, this is probably too far off topic to continue discussing!

 

[RainyDay]

What disappoints me is that Labour and FG still have confidence in him.

Shatter should resign asap.

Leo V seems to be the only one in FG with courage.

Enda Kenny has also dropped in my estimation.

Leo V has also confirmed confidence in Shatter, so don't feel you have to say nice things about anyone in FG or Labour.

 

[cremeegg]

The thing that scocks me most about all this matter of Callinan's sacking, resignation, retirement, take your pick.

It seems that a senior civil servant went to his house at night and told him that if he didn't resign he would be fired. What kind of behaviour is this for a civil servant. They are paid to work for the state, not to be messenger boys for the after hours, grubby dealings of politicians.

If that civil servant had any self respect or respect for his office as a servant of the STATE he would have told Enda or Shatter that if they wanted to communicate with the commissioner through the normal channels.

And if Martin Callinan had any self respect, he would have told that civil servant, unless it was an urgent matter of Police business he would be available in his office in the morning. What craven attitude to your superiors allows a man to accept the end of his career to be announced to him by an intermediary at night!! The whole thing smacks of something they were all too ashamed to let bee seen by the light of day.

If Martin Callinan had any competence to go with the self respect he doesn't have. He would have told the Sec Gen to go away and stop bothering him. If the minister wanted him gone he would oblige the minister to go to the trouble of publicly sacking him.

Then Martin Callinan could have gone to the press and said, something like, "As a police man of 40 years standing anything which damages the reputation of the Gardai upsets me greatly. It seemed to me that the actions of the whistleblowers did undermine the reputation of the gardai. However I have now come to realise that the good name of the Gardai is in the long run enhanced by exposing matters like this so that they can be rectified. And I would like to thank the whistleblowers for bringing these matters to public attention and to apologise for my previous remarks. Be assured of my determination to learn from this experience and to seek the assistance of the whistle blowers in addressing the issues raised, to further improve the Gardai"

Callinan would have been a hero to the Gardai, and in light of his well regarded handling of the taping situation, he would then have been unsackable.

Ultimately Callinan went because of his own lack of self respect, and inability to face down political bullying. No Loss

 

[cork]

It seems that a senior civil servant went to his house at night and told him that if he didn't resign he would be fired. What kind of behaviour is this for a civil servant. They are paid to work for the state, not to be messenger boys for the after hours, grubby dealings of politicians.

Awful stuff.

Shatter will easily win the vote of confidence.

Does not exactly restore faith in the the political system.

 

[Delboy]

...Callinan would have been a hero to the Gardai...

I don't think he would have been, to be honest. An awful lot of Gardai are very happy with the current situation and don't want any change or greater accountability.

 

[Purple]

Every journalist in the country is aware that Brian Purcell, the secretary general of the Department of Justice, had a death in his family the week that the letter was not given to Alan Shatter. Has anyone asked if he was distracted by the death of his mother and simply forgot to pass the letter on to the minister? Has anyone asked if he actually opened it?

Shatter is many things but a fool is not one of them. He wouldn’t strike me as politically inept either. Maybe I’ve been watching House of Cards too much but this whole episode stinks of a set-up.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Shatter will easily win the vote of confidence.

Of course he will. Two days of Dail time are to be devoted to this charade. I sometimes think the TV cameras should be banned. The two days will be spent by prima donnas trying to put in a TV-genic performance.

 

[cork]

Every journalist in the country is aware that Brian Purcell, the secretary general of the Department of Justice, had a death in his family the week that the letter was not given to Alan Shatter.

But many people work in that Dept.

The AG also knew.

Many questions need answering.

I don't think they will given our current Minister.