Management company fees in PIA

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Fastmover

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Hello can somebody help me please?

I completed a lump sum PIA with Grant Thornton in January 2020. Throughout the whole duration of the process from our initial meeting it was always understood that the management fees on my apartment will be included in my PIA. However a year later the management fees are still outstanding and they’re compounding interest every year.

I have contacted the management company and they say the PIA has nothing to do with them even though they are an included creditor in my final settlement. I have raised this with Grant Thornton and they have said they were notified of the creditors meeting but got no response. I have asked for proof of this for the last four months but have not received any support.

Can anyone advise me how best to resolve the situation. Many thanks for your help
 
This is an interesting one. Let's see what the Insolvency Service of Ireland says in their PDF:

https://www.isi.gov.ie/en/ISI/PIA_July_2016.pdf/Files/PIA_July_2016.pdf
On Page 10 they say that "Annual service charges to owner’s management companies" are an "Excludable Debt". And there is an asterisk to the bottom of the page where it says:

" *Creditor consent to include debt may be requested in which case it becomes a permitted debt. If no response is received the creditor will be deemed to have consented."

So Grant Thornton appear to be saying that the Management Company was written to, failed to respond, and by not doing so are deemed to have consented to the management fees being included in the PIA.

So far so good. But how do you get the Management Company to update it's records? Under GDPR, information must be kept accurate, and at the moment, it's not. So it might be possible to use GDPR protections in an effort to get the Management Company to write off the outstanding fees.
 
TLO said:
This is an interesting one. Let's see what the Insolvency Service of Ireland says in their PDF:

https://www.isi.gov.ie/en/ISI/PIA_July_2016.pdf/Files/PIA_July_2016.pdf
On Page 10 they say that "Annual service charges to owner’s management companies" are an "Excludable Debt". And there is an asterisk to the bottom of the page where it says:

" *Creditor consent to include debt may be requested in which case it becomes a permitted debt. If no response is received the creditor will be deemed to have consented."

So Grant Thornton appear to be saying that the Management Company was written to, failed to respond, and by not doing so are deemed to have consented to the management fees being included in the PIA.

So far so good. But how do you get the Management Company to update it's records? Under GDPR, information must be kept accurate, and at the moment, it's not. So it might be possible to use GDPR protections in an effort to get the Management Company to write
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Thank you for your reply. I never thought of a GDPR request to the management company.

This is where things get complicated. I can categorically state that at no time in my dealings with Grant Thornton they outlined that management fees were an excludable debt or I would’ve been all over this. I only found out when I read all the legislation because the management company were being a bit too cocky. Now before anyone says forewarned is forearmed I paid €5000 in fees for a PIA you expect professionals to do their job.
On the financial statement the debt is listed as an excludable debt. There is a box that says has the creditor consented to this being included and they’ve ticked no. Also says has the creditor been notified and they have ticked no

When I finally got through to someone in Grant Thornton they said they were notified but I’ve been waiting over 3 months to get them to send proof... I’ve even asked for a GDPR request that will take three months

I can tell anyone who is contemplating using Grant Thornton that the after-care sucks
 
So it's not clear if the fees were included or excluded from the PIA. You said, "Also says has the creditor been notified and they have ticked no". This suggests that the fees were excluded from the PIA unless Grant Thornton can prove that the management company was written to, which they haven't done so far. It might well be that, in the absence of proof otherwise, you still owe the fees.
 
Property mgmt Co have the option of staying outside a PIA. But they must elect to do so and confirm in writing to your PIP

Otherwise they are included and the debt is written off for a dividend under the arrangement.

Your PiP should be able to tell us this
 
I’ve just had a phone call from Grant Thornton staying that the management company opted out of the PIA. No one ever told me this and I’ve spent the last 4 months chasing this information.

I’m livid as now the management fees are €40k with compounding interest. Grant Thornton are a disgrace

If anyone can recommend where to go from here
 
You can only do one PIA in your lifetime. It should have been made clear to you, in fact you need to approve the proposal before it's sent.

Make a complaint under their procedure or to regulator.

Without knowing your circumstances it would be hard to give much insight.
 
For what it's worth, Google "How to make a complaint against a PIP" to find the ISI's guide. Unfortunately, I can't find the page with the link to this document.
 
ClubMan said:
For what it's worth, Google "How to make a complaint against a PIP" to find the ISI's guide. Unfortunately, I can't find the page with the link to this document.
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Thanks for this advice.
Raging Bull said:
You can only do one PIA in your lifetime. It should have been made clear to you, in fact you need to approve the proposal before it's sent.

Make a complaint under their procedure or to regulator.

Without knowing your circumstances it would be hard to give much insight.
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The draft PIA had the management company as a creditor that was to be included in the PIA. They were issued a dividend. I’m livid at this now 2 years later I’m only finding it out
 
If I was in your shoes I would make a formal complaint in writing to the PIP setting out my argument and asking them to negotiate some sort of settlement - e.g. they cover some or all of the outstanding management fees due. I would try to set out my issue/argument/complaint/expectations as simply and concisely as possible.

If that goes nowhere then I would read up and follow the ISI PIP complaints process that I mentioned earlier.
 
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Raging Bull said:
Well then it's a significant issue as you thought you were signing up to something that it wasn't
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100% all along they said the management company made no contact. I can tell you if somebody has said to me that the management fees were not going to be in my PIA I wouldn’t have gone through with it because that time it was €20,000...
 
Unfortunately we can't help you as you don't have full picture. They either opted out or they didn't.

If Mgmt co did nothing they are in after 21 days of receipt of the PIPs section 98 letter.

You are going to need to raise complaint with the PIP and/or regulator and send your own GDPR request to Mgmt co looking for your data and communications with your PIP over this issue
 
ClubMan said:
If I was in your shoes I would make a formal complaint in writing to the PIP setting out my argument and asking them to negotiate some sort of settlement - e.g. they cover some or all of the outstanding management fees due. I would try to set out my issue/argument/complaint/expectations as simply and concisely as possible.

If that goes nowhere then I would read up and follow the ISI PIP complaints process that I mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...
I am waiting for my file from Grant Thornton under a GDPR request. I will have to pursue this further because I was sold a pup. Thanks for your advice
 
Raging Bull said:
Unfortunately we can't help you as you don't have full picture. They either opted out or they didn't.

If Mgmt co did nothing they are in after 21 days of receipt of the PIPs section 98 letter.

You are going to need to raise complaint with the PIP and/or regulator and send your own GDPR request to Mgmt co looking for your data and communications with your PIP over this issue
Click to expand...
Yesterday evening a member of Grant Thornton called me to say that the management company had opted out of the PIA. This is the first time I have got that information. My creditors meeting was in July 2019. Grant Thornton had always told me that there was no communication from the management company. The management company debt was included in my PIA. I will have a better picture when I receive my file under a GDPR request. This is absolutely shambolic
 
So, to summarise:

July 2019. Your PIP tells you that the management company debt is included in the PIA. You let the creditors meeting go ahead.
August 2022. (4 months ago) You start querying your PIP.
December 2022 (Yesterday) Your PIP, or somebody on their behalf, tells you that the management company, as is their right, had opted out of the PIA.

In other words, you were told one thing in 2019, and something different in 2022. And had you been fully informed in 2019 you may have chosen a different course of action.
 
TLO said:
So, to summarise:

July 2019. Your PIP tells you that the management company debt is included in the PIA. You let the creditors meeting go ahead.
August 2022. (4 months ago) You start querying your PIP.
December 2022 (Yesterday) Your PIP, or somebody on their behalf, tells you that the management company, as is their right, had opted out of the PIA.

In other words, you were told one thing in 2019, and something different in 2022. And had you been fully informed in 2019 you may have chosen a different course of action.
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Yes that basically sums it up. Except I’ve tried for a year on and off to get clarification from Grant Thornton as the management company kept sending me statements with the balance increasing...then four months ago when I read all the legislation about management fees I’ve been pursing clarification relentlessly from Grant Thornton on the status of the management company fees and finally now last night I was told they opted out of the PIA

I chose a PIA because I was led to believe that all my debts would’ve been taken care of and I could keep my apartment. Also the management fees owed have escalated from 23,000 to now 44,000 in the space of three years when I assumed the management company was dragging its heels implementing the PIA . They are compounding the interest like the mafia.
 
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