Low income tax – High inheritance tax

If this tax existed I for one would be handing my kids the inheritence in cash over time. And so would everybody else.

And I suppose that's the point - would it be better to have money in circulation in the economy, being spent by the younger generation, than being kept out of the productive part of the economy by the stockpiling of the older generations?

I'm not expressing my own view here, just asking a question.
 
I'm amazed that this topic is still being discussed :)

Maybe I'm imagining things but did we not all learn around 2007 that it is folly for a government to attempt to replace revenues from income-based taxes with those from event-based and transaction-based taxes, due to the more volatile nature of the latter?

In the present and immediate future climate, I suggest that it is fanciful to expect that income taxes will ever fall significantly, even if 'compensating' revenues are sourced elsewhere.

And I don't think that anyone has properly addressed the points I made in my earlier post about the destructive impact that a 60% CAT rate would have on owner-managed and family businesses. Put simply, if an owner-manager business person dies (unexpectedly or otherwise), their estate would face an immediate 60% tax charge on their business assets. This would, in many cases necessitate an immediate liquidation of the business, as there is simply not enough investment capital out there to finance third-party business investments and buyouts.

This would entail serious implications for the job security of all employees working in small private businesses or industries.
 
Hi Tommy,

I'm not suggesting that this is a fix for our current problems, rather a fairer way of taxing people in the long term.
I agree that a mechanism would have to be found to keep family businesses in operation.
 
In that vein, its certainly worth looking at. I know though that there has been a lot of disillusionment in the UK with the perceived unfairness of the Inheritance Tax (IHT) system, where the rates are/were higher and the exempt thresholds a lot lower than in Ireland. Mind you, there is zero Gift Tax in the UK, once the donor survives 7 years after the date of the gift.
 
And I suppose that's the point - would it be better to have money in circulation in the economy, being spent by the younger generation, than being kept out of the productive part of the economy by the stockpiling of the older generations?

.

Well the younger generation certainly spent the money in the last 10 years and look where that got us.

Purple isn't being thrifty and careful with money a good thing, something that should be encouraged?

Perhaps if people were encouraged to invest in entreprenurship/business that would be more fruitful that what you are proposing.
 
Well the younger generation certainly spent the money in the last 10 years and look where that got us.
They spent much of it buying property from older people. We saw a massive credit funded transfer of wealth from young to old throughout the boom.

Purple isn't being thrifty and careful with money a good thing, something that should be encouraged?
Yes, and knowing that when your parents die you won't get a big lump sum will only help this.

Perhaps if people were encouraged to invest in entreprenurship/business that would be more fruitful that what you are proposing.
Why not do both? Property taxes are a good way of keeping money out of non-productive assets.
 
Hi Tommy,

I'm not suggesting that this is a fix for our current problems, rather a fairer way of taxing people in the long term.
I agree that a mechanism would have to be found to keep family businesses in operation.

Purple, why do you think family businesses should be exempt? Shouldnt they be subject to the same rules as other wealth? Why is it ok for someone to get the benefit of e.g. inheriting a business worth €1m, but not allowed to get the benefit of inheriting property worth €1m or cash?

Also, I dont agree that inheritance tax means that family businesses will get liquidated on the owners death. If the business is sucessful, then someone will be willing to buy it as a going concern.

On the subject of people working years in family businesses - dont they get a salary like everyone else?

Incidently, I dont agree with large inheritance taxes. Looking at it from a purely scientific basis - while an individual dies, their genes live on in their children. Its logical that these genes should get the benefit of their hard work in a previous life.
 
Also, I dont agree that inheritance tax means that family businesses will get liquidated on the owners death. If the business is sucessful, then someone will be willing to buy it as a going concern.

Wishful thinking in the vast majority of cases. I couldn't imagine too many people buying a farm, for example, as a going concern.
 
Purple, why do you think family businesses should be exempt? Shouldnt they be subject to the same rules as other wealth? Why is it ok for someone to get the benefit of e.g. inheriting a business worth €1m, but not allowed to get the benefit of inheriting property worth €1m or cash?

Trading businesses / farms, to which CAT reliefs apply, contribute to the active economy, they add to economic output and generate and maintain employment. The same can't be said of property, or cash, which in and of themselves are merely passive assets.

In order to obtain the CAT reliefs, the recipient will generally have been actively involved in generating the value in the business that is being passed on (and must continue to trade, or at least hold the business assets, for 6 years after receipt). The same can't necessarily be said where someone wishes to pass on property, or cash.
 
I see the merit in CAT relief for business assets.
I wonder in the current climate if the 90% relief can be justified ie if you qualify then 2.5m can be inherited without CAT. There is no CGT on death or in retirement relief cases, . No stamp duty in the case of death either.
Surely if a business is worth say 1m CAT of €100,000 payable over say 5 years would not be too much. So reduce the relief to 33% instead of 90%.
 
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Surely if a business is worth say 1m CAT of €100,000 payable over say 5 years would not be too much.

At normal Revenue interest rates, this would cost almost €25,000 per year. How many businesses have that sort of money lying around?

Anyway, businesses are paying enough tax as it is especially after the recent VAT hikes. I can't understand the fetish with taxing them until the pips squeak.
 
Good topic and one I've often wondered about.

I am broadly in favour of Purple's idea AS LONG AS INCOME TAXES ARE ALSO REDUCED.

Lower taxes mean that someone who works hard can have a decent chance of providing for their retirement. The kids who inherit will certainly do better than those kids from poorer parents, however, they will have to give something back. If this means that family homes need to be sold, then so be it..the kids will still be getting a lot of money for "free". I think this move would be a good way of levelling the playing field where essentially, hard work is rewarded more so that the lottery of birth.
 
Tax Inheridance

I agree nobody should get a free ride ... everyone should live by the fruits of their own labour and not inherited benefits. I wouldnt tax heavely on inherited businesses or farms just assets like cash and houses... afterall we have CGT to deal with realised earnings from the sale of an inherited business or farm...ie i dont mind a child inheriting a Job from his parents business , if he works hard in that Job he'll benefit for his efforts ... if he decided to sell the business then he should be taxed heavely.
 
At normal Revenue interest rates, this would cost almost €25,000 per year. How many businesses have that sort of money lying around?

Did not realise that the CAT interest was 25%pa. What I would propose is that people claiming Ag Relief or Bus. Asset Rel would get a 5 year installment agreement interest free as a compromise.

Anyway, businesses are paying enough tax as it is especially after the recent VAT hikes. I can't understand the fetish with taxing them until the pips squeak.

Anyone earning over 32800 paying 52%, CT at 12.5% don't think thats taxing them until the pips squeak as you put it.
 
I agree nobody should get a free ride ... everyone should live by the fruits of their own labour and not inherited benefits. I wouldnt tax heavely on inherited businesses or farms just assets like cash and houses... afterall we have CGT to deal with realised earnings from the sale of an inherited business or farm...ie i dont mind a child inheriting a Job from his parents business , if he works hard in that Job he'll benefit for his efforts ... if he decided to sell the business then he should be taxed heavely.

If you inherit assets worth €2m and qualify for relief no CAT.

If you hold the assets for 6 years then there is no clawback. If the assets do not increase in value no CGT. So no tax on assets of 2m.
 
Did not realise that the CAT interest was 25%pa. What I would propose is that people claiming Ag Relief or Bus. Asset Rel would get a 5 year installment agreement interest free as a compromise.



Anyone earning over 32800 paying 52%, CT at 12.5% don't think thats taxing them until the pips squeak as you put it.

The interest rate isn't 25%, but €100,000 repaid over 5 years at current Revenue interest rate is almost €25,000 p.a.

CT and high rate income tax mightn't be a heavy burden, but when you add in employer PESI, rates and VAT, the story changes.
 
It would also make it virtually impossible for any family business to ever afford to transfer its ownership within the family to the next generation, as most firms have their equity tied up in working capital or generally illiquid assets.

I agree, and personally oppose any kind of inheritance tax, and not because I anticipate any large sum. Here is an example of a friend of my parent’s in Germany. After WWII he was 15, his brother 19 and both his parents had died during the war. The older brother got work and started rebuilding a badly damaged house where the two brothers eventually lived. The older brother never married but lived with the younger brother and his family in the house they rebuilt. Turns out that the area they lived in would become a very popular area of Cologne. When the older brother died he left the house to the younger brother who had to then sell the house because on a teachers salary he was not able to get a mortgage to pay the inheritance tax.

In principle is it better to have lower income taxes and higher inheritance taxes?
I think taxes overall should be lower, rather than raising one to lower another and then a couple of years later another politician decides to raise the latter again so the overall tax take is higher than originally.

Why should anyone feel entitled to inherit their parents wealth (including the family home)?
I don’t think anybody should feel entitled to anything, but if a parent decides to leave something to their children then that parent should have the right to do so without the state taking a share. I think it is totally immoral to simply take private property because you think someone has “too much”. That is mob mentality and severely infringes on private property rights. What I do with my private wealth should be of no concern to anybody.

If the taxation scenario changes dramatically, people will motivated to find other ways to avoid tax and, indeed, nursing home charges. Shouldn't people to able to leave a house to their children?
I agree. I think in general this sort of idea gains popularity because people think of taking something away from “the rich” or “the super rich”. If I was due a large inheritance I would move to a country that has no inheritance tax to completely legally avoid inheritance taxation and return a few years later. The lower the inheritance tax would be the less likely I would choose this approach.

Why? I hate inheritance tax, absolutely hate it. If I choose to work hard all my life and want to then leave the fruits of my labour to my children why should the government of the day get a chunk of that? I earned it, I paid my tax along the way, it's mine now to pass on as I see fit as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely, it should be nobody’s business what you do with your wealth before or after you die. It is your property and in a free society you should be able to dispose of it as you like.

Wouldn't a much fairer tax (I know that is a contradiction in terms!) than inheritance tax be a wealth tax? Tax savings/assets over a certain (reasonably high) threshold to encourage more current spending and less stock piling? Again there would be difficulties in how to implement this but I would see this as a much better way of encouraging current spending (which seems to be the aim yourself and Brendan are striving for here) than a blanket tax grab on inheritance.
No, spending is wealth destroying. When money is “stockpiled” as you say then it doesn’t leave the economy. Saved money is absolutely crucial, as it provides the basis investment in the productive economy. The last thing especially Ireland needs is more spending. What is lacking here is investment, whether directly or indirectly through saving. A wealth tax discourages this.

If this tax existed I for one would be handing my kids the inheritence in cash over time. And so would everybody else.
Indeed, it has been shown time and time again that increased taxes lead to a higher rate of avoidance and evasion while lowering taxes has the opposite effect.

And I suppose that's the point - would it be better to have money in circulation in the economy, being spent by the younger generation, than being kept out of the productive part of the economy by the stockpiling of the older generations?
No, spending does not benefit an economy per se, and definitely not an economy that is in trouble. When money is spent there is less money for investment which means there is less money for business expansion, which means there are less jobs. You have to produce before you can consume.
 
Thats a very comprehensive summary

I agree, and personally oppose any kind of inheritance tax, and not because I anticipate any large sum. Here is an example of a friend of my parent’s in Germany. After WWII he was 15, his brother 19 and both his parents had died during the war. The older brother got work and started rebuilding a badly damaged house where the two brothers eventually lived. The older brother never married but lived with the younger brother and his family in the house they rebuilt. Turns out that the area they lived in would become a very popular area of Cologne. When the older brother died he left the house to the younger brother who had to then sell the house because on a teachers salary he was not able to get a mortgage to pay the inheritance tax.



I think that perhaps a provision in the Tax is better that getting rid of it altogether. We had such a provision but for some reason it was amended in 2007 to exclude inheritances from people under 65.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/leaflets/cat10.html

On the basis that there is no Capital Gains Tax on death there has to be some form of taxation on inheritances to capture the tax these gains.
 
I don’t think anybody should feel entitled to anything, but if a parent decides to leave something to their children then that parent should have the right to do so without the state taking a share.

Hi Chris, I'm not sure the state will be taking a share as such. Basically, the next of kin would pay a tax as they in effect have received an income in the form of a asset gift.

I think it is totally immoral to simply take private property because you think someone has “too much”. That is mob mentality and severely infringes on private property rights. What I do with my private wealth should be of no concern to anybody.

I totally agree, but the issue is when your wealth is passed to another person ie your kids, then perhaps they should have to pay a tax on this gift?

No, spending is wealth destroying. When money is “stockpiled” as you say then it doesn’t leave the economy. Saved money is absolutely crucial, as it provides the basis investment in the productive economy.

I agree with this, however (to play Devil's advocate) , too much saving on the otherhand would not be a good idea either...even though there would be ample funds for the productive economy to invest, they wouldn't do so if no-one was going to buy their products! .. The Paradox of Thrift from your beloved Keynes!!
 
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