Leaving Ireland

[belle1]

CiaranK

yes you are right we are paying a HIGH price, having to emigrate, but I know we will have a better quality of life.
I know some people might not agree to us keeping the rent, but in the grand scheme of things its not hugh money and we wont be long spending it with relocation costs etc. Is not like we are defaulting on purpose and saving the money.

I think I would rather deal with them over the phone, so its possible I will reschedule the meetings etc to earns us a bit of extra time.

thanks for the idea.

 

[Time]

Get yourself a cheap pay as you go mobile and give them that number as a contact. Then you can decide when you wish to talk to them.

 

[ciarank]

They may not even know you cancelled TRS.

Totally agree, I would bet my life savings that they wouldn't even notice the TRS being cancelled....

 

[ciarank]

CiaranK

yes you are right we are paying a HIGH price, having to emigrate, but I know we will have a better quality of life.
I know some people might not agree to us keeping the rent, but in the grand scheme of things its not hugh money and we wont be long spending it with relocation costs etc. Is not like we are defaulting on purpose and saving the money.

I think I would rather deal with them over the phone, so its possible I will reschedule the meetings etc to earns us a bit of extra time.

thanks for the idea.

The people you are referring to who 'might not agree to us keeping the rent' are almost certainly not faced with the dire situation you find yourself in. I wonder how their 'moral judgement' would change so quickly if they had leave the country they grew up in. It's so easy for people to sit on the sidelines pointing the finger and passing judgement. I would love to see if they would 'pay back every penny they owe the banks regardless' if they were in the same situation.

Rid yourself of any guilt or regret you may have, put it behind you and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise! You have only one life...don't let your bank dictate how you are going to live that. They made a commercial decision to lend to you and it didn't work out....tough, that's how business works. FYI....if you were in the US in the same situation, you would just hand the keys back and that would be the end of it. A few months later you would be well on your way to rebuilding your life again!

By the way, how much time would you like to keep the bank off your back for, 6 months, 12 months? There are many ways to 'kick the can down the road'.....God knows, the banks themselves are the best of all at doing that!

 

[belle1]

By the way, how much time would you like to keep the bank off your back for, 6 months, 12 months? There are many ways to 'kick the can down the road'.....God knows, the banks themselves are the best of all at doing that![/QUOTE]

We are hoping to leave in Sep/Oct this year. But from reading other posts etc, the banks seem to be very slow to put arrangements, voluntary surrenders etc in place. Does any one know any timeframes on VS process. Maybe it varies from bank to bank...

BTW this website is great, thanks for the ongoing support. Its great to get some perspective on these issues

 

[ciarank]

So you need about 6 or 7 months......that's buckets of time. Very little will happen inside that timeframe even if they don't receive any money. Don't surrender the property until you're defo ready to leave.

You don't need to wait for them to issue you their surrender forms, just write out a 1 page letter outlining you can no longer repay your mortgage and you wish to surrender the property back to the bank. Be sure to state that you understand your legal obligations to the bank etc or they won't accept it. Oh yeah and stick a set of Keys in with it too....that's why it's referred to as 'Jingle Mail'!

 

[belle1]

Update

We met with the bank today. They told us "sure you can VS the house but you will be responsible for the shortfall, we will need to put a payment plan in place, and if that is not possible, we will get a Judgement against you".

We are due to go on a tracker rate soon so they have suggested we rent out the house and just pay interest only. I told them we are possibly emigrating. The IO payment will be considerably low when we go on tracker, maybe 400/500 euro per month, but this will be just the interest we are paying. We will not be servicing the capital repayment. If we rent the house, we have to consider all the costs associated with renting so we are still not sure if this would be the best decision for us.

So our options are VS, emigrate and ignore the shortfall or rent out the house, pay interest only for probably 2/3 years if the bank allow it but we will still have the capital to deal with, deal with the expenses/tax etc that come with being a landlord and hope that the house prices increases in the next 5 years or so.

Even if the house prices went up in our area, if we were to sell in a couple of years I dont think we would break even and we would still be left with a shortfall.

Not sure what to do now.

 

[belle1]

Thinking about this all weekend. Think it's best to stick to our plans to VS house and emigrate.

We calculated that we have paid over 90k over the last six years and the balance on mortgage is pretty much still the same. Shocking! Needless to say we are on a rate of over 6%.

 

[Bronte]

Update

We are due to go on a tracker rate soon so they have suggested we rent out the house and just pay interest only.

We will not be servicing the capital repayment.

If we rent the house, we have to consider all the costs associated with renting so we are still not sure if this would be the best decision for us.

.

I think you got it spot on in that post. Fair enough one might think that they will allow you pay interest only, but then what, they change their mind in 2 or 3 years, and it's still not dealing with the capital, no one is certain that house price increases will wipe out the NE.

And in relation to being a landlord, that's certainly not for everybody, plus you'll be abroad. And I'd hazard a guess that it would actually only cost you the way the government has structured taxes on properties currently. It's very hard to break even never mind make a profit and on top of that one has to deal with the lack of capital appreciation.

 

[belle1]

Thanks Bronte.

The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change"

To me there is only one winner in this scenario "the bank"

 

[Bronte]

The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change"

You're not the first person who has mentioned banks saying this. They really don't get it. Kicking the can down the road hasn't been of any use to a load of people up to now and if that is still their attitude despite reams of newsprint stating banks are really tackling the mortgage arrears crisis and the term 'sustainability. Well one would give up.

 

[Negotiator]

Thanks Bronte.

The expression they used with us the other day was " sure just kick the can down the road for another while and hopefully things will change"

To me there is only one winner in this scenario "the bank"

This is just typical of the bank's mentality. I would simply kick that can back to the banks with your keys inside it and be done with them. When you're gone for a few years with absolutely no contact, then they will have a greater appetite to cut you a more favorable deal!

 

[Gerry Canning]

Thanks Cashier, you obviously guess where Im coming from...thanks for the kind words. I hope we are doing the right thing and everything works out ok.

No point in leaving Bank to repossess. STRONGLY suggest call into them and TELL THEM your decision and IMPRESS on them that you want to assist them in disposing/sorting the Mortgage. Tell them you are aware of shortfall but the LEAST you can do is assist them in disposal of the house. In this way you are as helpful AS A POOR SITUATION permits.
If they don,t accept your help, do what you must do to protect your family.

 

[a-tax-payer]

Hi Belle1,

Like Dermot, your probably not going to like what I say either, but i'll offer my opinion anyway.

There seem to be two different items.
The friend loan - Its always easy to look back in hindsight and say it was a bad decision, and I myself have had loaned money to friends for much, much, much smaller amounts and had difficulty in getting it back. That was my own money and my own poor judgment and I didn't borrow for it. SO I paid the consequences which i fully accept. is there any legal or otherwise trail to getting that money from that "friend" ? are they still your friend? it sounds like probably not. Can you force that person to sell whatever asset was used with the money?

The Mortgage -
You seem like a good person, and I can understand that you want to do the best for your family. You said you believe in paying your way but still want to take the rental money, stop paying anything towards the mortgage and do a runner to another country, leaving huge debts for the rest of us to pick up the tab.
What if we all had this attitude? the country would be an economic wasteland.
There also seem to be unpaid taxes since 2008 from the rental property.

In fairness, you did sign up willingly to the mortgage (and the other loan). So there should be consequences of some sort for you. I know having to leave the country might be considered a consequence but I mean financial consequences.

As a taxpayer who will have to live here after you leave, Its not fair on the rest of us who will have to undergo further fiscal measures because of this action.

It should be an option for the bank to roll up the total debt, sell the house, get what they can and work out something with you. any debt writeoff should go on your ICB record and stay there for 20 years, maybe they can let you get settled in the new country and once you find work and your feet you could make some payments.
It might not be feasible to get every penny back, but we need to show the prudent taxpayer who didnt overborrow, who lives within their means and who will have to continue to pay taxes here some value for money and reward for being prudent.

 

[Time]

Trying to get blood from stones springs to mind.

20 years on the ICB? What is this? Stalinist Russia?

Is it any wonder that people flee Ireland to non EU states to escape this oppression?

 

[Luternau]

It should be an option for the bank to roll up the total debt, sell the house, get what they can and work out something with you. any debt writeoff should go on your ICB record and stay there for 20 years, maybe they can let you get settled in the new country and once you find work and your feet you could make some payments.

OMG-you propose a longer debt sentence than the courts can impose for murder! Since when was it a worse to borrow money, assisted by incompetence at bank credit committee levels than to commit a major crime? And I amy add that once released from prison, there is no further restitution demanded by the state.

Tell me you dont think that the problems we as a country face were not caused and willfully assisted by the banks? It is they that should have to continue to pay the state back every single cent that we lent them to stay in business, and this should include all the amounts the banks write off, and such write offs should not be allowed to be used to lower their tax bill. If this takes 50 or 100 yrs, so be it.

 

[munchy]

Trying to get blood from stones springs to mind.

20 years on the ICB? What is this? Stalinist Russia?

Is it any wonder that people flee Ireland to non EU states to escape this oppression?

I agree. The Irish debt troubles are not an accurate picture of many defaulters ability and willingness to pay. Many folk (myself included) would have had impeccable credit records, paid every parking fine and had a perfect record for decades - and suddenly find this one blip in our history totally overturn all previous efforts. Its probably why so many people have sleepless nights worrying -because getting into this sort of debt would have been their worst possible nightmare come true.

 

[belle1]

A-tax-payer

I have been down the legal route with my "friend". I won my case, I thought great! But no, this person appealed and got a witness to lie for him in court! I lost leaving me with 4k legal exps. So yes before I had to make the decision to emigrate I've have exhausted every avenue to try and sort out this mess but the years are passing by and I'm taking the risk for the sake of a better life for my family

 

[a-tax-payer]

Hi All

Just getting a chance to reply to you all now.

@ Time/Luternau/munchy - ok i might have jumped the gun a little with 20 years on the ICB, perhaps there should be different degrees of severity imposed.
It just is very unfair to all us honest, paying, working PAYE taxpayers be saddled with this type of debt.
What about the prudent taxpayer who didnt buy a house during the credit bubble ? What about the renters? what about the people who live within their means and may have bought a reasonable property and over the years made sensible decisions and overpaid their mortgage leaving them mortgage free? Their property is worth considerably less now too - but no one is clambering to give them a refund, even though they may have lost tens of thousands of euros.

All I am asking for is fairness for all working taxpayers including those who didnt get into debt. Dont they deserve to be rewarded for making prudent financial decisions?

There will be debt writedowns, I cant prevent this from happening. But those people should have to face some form of penalty. There are two parties involved so yes the banks will also have to suffer too.

@belle1
while i dont agree with your actions
All i can say is good luck with the move.
our justice system is also in a shocking state and i'd love to shake it up and impose real justice for serious crimes.

 

[Bronte]

perhaps there should be different degrees of severity imposed.

It just is very unfair

Life's unfair, but we need to get the country moving again. When people are in unsustainable situations, then debt writedowns have to happen in a capitalist society. (unless you're very rich or a bank of course - then you socialise the debts).

You're suggesting that those in debt should be severely punished, for what reason to make us compliant tax payers feel better. That will do nobody any good. Do you want to bring us back to Dickensian England?