Leak from toilet - who is liable for resulting costs.

H

Havana

Registered User
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254
Hi,

I completed the purchase of an apartment in mid July, floors went down mid September.

Mid October I realised I had a major leak from somewhere in the bathroom. The floors throughout most of the apartment will have to be replaced, walls repaired and also the wardrobe.

A plumber that was on site came and said it was an issue with the cistern of the toilet. They repaired it there and then.

The builders are refusing to pay for the replacement of the floors (they will sort the wall and the wardrobe), claiming it was a manufacturing issue, not an installation one, and suggest I claim it from the block policy. But there is an excess of €500 on the policy.

I spoke to my solicitor who believes the buliders are liable as they should have ensured the apartment was fitted with products to the correct standard.

As far as I'm concerned I should not be out of pocket for this. I'd prefer to avoid claiming from the block policy as I do feel the builders should be covering this, but I'm wondering am I right on this? Who is liable in such a situation?

Thanks
 
Was it explained to you how it was a manufacturing issue as opposed to an installation one?

Most ware come in sections that must be put together and sealed, unless there was a crack in cistern I can't see it being a manufacturing fault.
 
Thanks

Last time I spoke to him the foreman was waiting on the report but said from what the plumbers had said that it was a manufactoring issue.

When the plumbers were here they said something about some plastic piece coming off, probably because of the water pressure and that they would reduce the pressure. When I said this to the foreman he maintained that the pressure had been within the correct limits so therefore it was not caused by them.
 
Do you know how they fixed it on the day? Have you a pump in your house that is used on hot and cold water?
 
It literally took them 2 minutes to fix it. They just put back on whatever had fallen off!!!

I'm not sure what you mean by a pump?? I'm in an apartment block. I know in my last place when you turned on any water you could hear something kicking in, if that makes sense. That doesn't happen here.
 
Havana said:
Hi,

I completed the purchase of an apartment in mid July, floors went down mid September.

Mid October I realised I had a major leak from somewhere in the bathroom. The floors throughout most of the apartment will have to be replaced, walls repaired and also the wardrobe.

A plumber that was on site came and said it was an issue with the cistern of the toilet. They repaired it there and then.

The builders are refusing to pay for the replacement of the floors (they will sort the wall and the wardrobe), claiming it was a manufacturing issue, not an installation one, and suggest I claim it from the block policy. But there is an excess of €500 on the policy.

I spoke to my solicitor who believes the buliders are liable as they should have ensured the apartment was fitted with products to the correct standard.

As far as I'm concerned I should not be out of pocket for this. I'd prefer to avoid claiming from the block policy as I do feel the builders should be covering this, but I'm wondering am I right on this? Who is liable in such a situation?

Thanks
Click to expand...

It sounds like a degree of buck-passing has gone on and this is normal in such cases.
From the outset, please note when reviewing my comments hereunder that I'm not trying to level any accusations.
My experience of remedial works and claims suggests that questions will need to be asked to establish the facts of the matter, one way or another.
With a downside of only €500 the simplest thing for you may be do refer it to your insurer as this sounds like a potentially large claim and liability is not fully determined.

The solicitor is the only professional acting for you and we assume he is competent to do his part in this situation.
However he is not a building professional which seems to leave you somewhat under-represented.
I think you also need an architect and perhaps a mechanical and electrical engineer to; -

  1. establish the cause of the original fault
  2. review the remedial measure undertaken
  3. review water damage to the apartment
  4. review water damage to other services
  5. agree the level of remedial works now required
  6. represent your interests with the loss assessor.
The insurer will probably request a loss assessor's report and the loss assessor will be trying to limit any pay-out.
Your building professionals should be there to make sure you get your fair dues under the contract, which should include their fees.
They should request a comprensive recommissioning of services, particularly electrical services in the apartment and check any defective insulation is replaced.

The solicitor can best advise on the other parties' liability under the purchase contract/lease or your own liability in this matter.
You may not have considered the latter, but if the leak occurred in your apartment after you moved in and if it went unnoticed for some time you may bear some liability yourself.

Acting in a timely manner to reduce loss is a basic principle.
This is especially so in apartment developments where the issue may impact on other occupancies and the management company may become involved.
For example, if the product was from a reputable supplier and was installed in a competent manner by a registerd plumbing contractor, there is a question as to what, if anything, went wrong with the product and whether any liability may arise from possible improper use occassioned by you or visitors to your apartment.

Your architect can also attend and inspect the remedial works to ensure that the apartment has been allowed to properly dry out before any new materials are fitted - building-in moisture is never a good idea.
Finally you may need to organise alternative accommodation for yourself while all the work is being done and you should see if this is covered under your policy.

Take note that this is not an exhaustive or definitve comment in relation to the above and any and all matters discussed are subject to inspection.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
onq said:
It sounds like a degree of buck-passing has gone on and this is normal in such cases.
From the outset, please note when reviewing my comments hereunder that I'm not trying to level any accusations.
My experience of remedial works and claims suggests that questions will need to be asked to establish the facts of the matter, one way or another.
With a downside of only €500 the simplest thing for you may be do refer it to your insurer as this sounds like a potentially large claim and liability is not fully determined.

The solicitor is the only professional acting for you and we assume he is competent to do his part in this situation.
However he is not a building professional which seems to leave you somewhat under-represented.
I think you also need an architect and perhaps a mechanical and electrical engineer to; -

  1. establish the cause of the original fault
  2. review the remedial measure undertaken
  3. review water damage to the apartment
  4. review water damage to other services
  5. agree the level of remedial works now required
  6. represent your interests with the loss assessor.
The insurer will probably request a loss assessor's report and the loss assessor will be trying to limit any pay-out.
Your building professionals should be there to make sure you get your fair dues under the contract, which should include their fees.
They should request a comprensive recommissioning of services, particularly electrical services in the apartment and check any defective insulation is replaced.

The solicitor can best advise on the other parties' liability under the purchase contract/lease or your own liability in this matter.
You may not have considered the latter, but if the leak occurred in your apartment after you moved in and if it went unnoticed for some time you may bear some liability yourself.

Acting in a timely manner to reduce loss is a basic principle.
This is especially so in apartment developments where the issue may impact on other occupancies and the management company may become involved.
For example, if the product was from a reputable supplier and was installed in a competent manner by a registerd plumbing contractor, there is a question as to what, if anything, went wrong with the product and whether any liability may arise from possible improper use occassioned by you or visitors to your apartment.

Your architect can also attend and inspect the remedial works to ensure that the apartment has been allowed to properly dry out before any new materials are fitted - building-in moisture is never a good idea.
Finally you may need to organise alternative accommodation for yourself while all the work is being done and you should see if this is covered under your policy.

Take note that this is not an exhaustive or definitve comment in relation to the above and any and all matters discussed are subject to inspection.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
Click to expand...

Thanks for thatonq.

With regards to my own liability...

If I had any belief that I was in any small way at fault i wouldn't persue this at all. The floors were bare for 2 months after i moved in and there was no sign of any keaks. The cistern is concealed so was in no way tampered with.

I first noticed a problem on a Thursday evening when I noticed a water mark on the bathroom wall. I looked around and noticed that the water had seeped under the tiles and was visible under the join of the bathroom tiles and the wood floor in the hall. Later when I walked into the bedroom I could hear the water squelching underfoot. I walked to the corner of the room and stepped on the floor and a tsunami came pouring out. The next morning I removed the side of the bath (I did not know here the leak was coming from) and there was an inch of water under there. At that point I called the bulder but it was the BH weekend and there was no one around until the Tuesday.

My floors were not expensive, in fact i got such a good deal, that they were cheaper than the €500 excess. I have gotten a quote for supply and fitting and it does annoy me that I may have to pay over half of the cost.

Thanks for the replies. i kinda feel at a dead end, not really sure were to go with it. it's dragging on now. I'm awaiting a call back from the developers so I'll see if there is any movement.
 
You probably need to confirm whether this is covered under the block policy. There are widely varying interpretations of what is covered by a block policy. The general intent is to cover the common areas or damage caused that originated in the common areas. It is generally normal practice that your own policy covers the fixtures and fitting and contents of the unit. Having said that, there appears to be a huge variance in claims that are accepted by different management companies / assessors and insurance companies.

Lots of insurance companies have made significant losses on block policies and so premiums and the excess is rising. If the policy for your block is due for renewal soon, that excess may rise so it is probably worth investigating that quickly.
 
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