Is Household charge fair?

[Liamos]

Is the household charge fair and if not, will you refuse to pay it?

Although it is 'only' €100, it does seem unfair that someone like Micheal O'Leary will pay the exact same amount as someone on the average industrial wage.

Another example of the 'fairness' of this years Budget.

 

[truthseeker]

I live in a managed estate. It has not been taken in hand by the council, it will never be taken in hand by the council, it is effectively private property. We receive a breakdown of management fees and they include charges for street lighting, maintenance of grounds/road/pavement, rubbish collection charges, grass cutting etc...

So I am curious to know how my 100 euro will be used as the local authority has no input in my estate.

I dont think its fair that someone in a home worth millions pays the same as someone in a tiny one room apartment. Or that someone earning millions pays the same as someone on social welfare.

 

[shnaek]

Is it fair that people who have gotten houses for free won't have to pay at all? Is it fair that the middle classes are getting screwed more and more each day, and most likely will be wiped out over the coming years?
The one thing we can be sure of is that nothing is fair. The only thing we can work on is reclaiming our lives from incessant incompetent government interference, because whenever the government dip their dirty hands in you can be certain of an unfair result.

 

[TarfHead]

Is the household charge fair ..

No

.. and if not, will you refuse to pay it?

No

 

[z107]

9 TDs now are calling on the public not to pay:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/nine-tds-call-on-public-to-resist-household-charge-532323.html

I wont be in any rush to register. I will wait and see what happens next year.
I hate the idea of being forced to hand over money to bondholders. I'm guessing that they'll fine or jail a handful of people and then everyone else will start paying. The following year it'll then be easy to increase to €1000.

So for me: no.

 

[Purple]

Yes and yes for me.

We should remember that most of the tax increases are to pay for current expenditure (state services etc) and not to pay bondholders etc.

 

[DerKaiser]

Are you happy with VAT, DIRT, Motor Tax, PRSI, USC, CGT, Corporation Tax, Social Welfare rates, Capital Spending, Health Spending, Education Spending, the Croke Park agreement?

Whatever way you look at it, and people can come up with all the justifications they want for not paying it, each householder owes €2 a week on this particular tax. Everyone invidually wants more welfare or less tax and you can try defraud the system for personal benefit if that's what you want, but it is for selfish reasons and not for some higher cause.

It is utterly stupid to try assess the fairness of this charge in the context of the wider taxation/welfare regime let alone on its own.

The €100 will probably be the minimum for everyone in the ultimate regime. I've no doubt people with larger or more expensive houses will be asked to pay significantly more in the future.

We are in a democracy with a government elected at least once every 5 years. This time last year people argued it had been a whole 3.5 years since the last election and things had changed and popular opinion (as measured by media polls rather than the democratically accepted methods) meant the government had no mandate to govern. That was a load of bull then and to try undermine the democratic process by refusing to acknowlege the right of the government we voted in less than 10 months ago to legislate and raise taxation is nothing short of subversive.

Dail deputies who willingly break the law, or more importantly encourage others to, shoul be removed from office.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Of course it is fair. Given that the tax is for local services why should Michael O'Leary pay more for the same services as anyone else? There are other taxes I would have an issue with but this one I have no problem with.

 

[TarfHead]

Yes and yes for me.

So,Yes, it's fair, and Yes, you'll refuse to pay it ?

 

[thedaras]

I will be paying it..

I just heard a woman on Newstalk being interviewed,she said she was against paying it and will not pay it and has told/encouraging others not to pay it either.

Then I heard the interviewer say something like ,you are a member of Government,should you be encouraging people to break the law,and she answered with this beaut;

Theres moral laws and legal laws..!!!!
Dear God!! I will have to find out who that was.
Who could that possibly be?

 

[DerKaiser]

Given that the tax is for local services why should Michael O'Leary pay more for the same services as anyone else?

Did you not get the memo?

If you're smart, ambitious and work hard you owe everyone a living.

If you've never achieved anything in your life, you are owed a living by everyone else.

 

[TarfHead]

I will be paying it..

I just heard a woman on Newstalk being interviewed,she said she was against paying it and will not pay it and has told/encouraging others not to pay it either.

Then I heard the interviewer say something like ,you are a member of Government,should you be encouraging people to break the law,and she answered with this beaut;

Theres moral laws and legal laws..!!!!
Dear God!! I will have to find out who that was.
Who could that possibly be?

I heard Joan Collins, of the United 'Down with that sort of thing' Alliance on Newstalk, 30 minutes ago, saying she would not pay it, but hmmmed and hawed about being willing to go to the 'joy over it.

Maybe the Newstalk guy meant a member of the Dail or the Oireachtas ?

She was followed by a member of the public claiming that having paid stamp duty, she's absolved from payment of any household charge. Bet she won;t be absolved from slopping out .

 

[thedaras]

Well said DerKaiser.
Tarfhead, I know Clare daly was on,but not sure if it was her who said it.

 

[z107]

Yes and yes for me.

We should remember that most of the tax increases are to pay for current expenditure (state services etc) and not to pay bondholders etc.

Why should we 'remember' this when it is not true? We had a thread about this a few weeks ago - well it turned into this discussion anyway.

A couple of obvious reasons why this is not true:
1. If we, and future generations are not paying for bondholders, then who is?
2. This property tax was agreed as part of the IMF bailout. It is directly related to repaying bondholders/hedgefund holders.

You may like to convince yourself that we are not paying back bondholders, but the facts remain.

 

[DerKaiser]

This property tax was agreed as part of the IMF bailout. It is directly related to repaying bondholders/hedgefund holders.

The EU/IMF bailout was funding two things:

1) The additional borrowing required to ease our budget deficit back towards a balanced situation - This is day to day spending

2) The money needed to pay off those who loaned money to the banks

The measures agreed bring us back to a situation where our day to day budget is still in deficit. So, if anything, all the additional revenue measures agreed in the bailout are to pay for our own spending.


When we have balanced the budget and paid back all the money borrowed to fund the budget deficits, any additional taxes at that point can be considered to be repaying the people who loaned money to the banks.

 

[z107]

When we have balanced the budget and paid back all the money borrowed to fund the budget deficits, any additional taxes at that point can be considered to be repaying the people who loaned money to the banks.

That can't be correct.
The government has already paid billions to bondholders. Another couple of billion due the beginning of next month to unsecured bondholders.

So I ask again.
Who is ultimately paying the bondholders?

 

[Purple]

That can't be correct.
The government has already paid billions to bondholders. Another couple of billion due the beginning of next month to unsecured bondholders.

So I ask again.
Who is ultimately paying the bondholders?

At the moment the IMF/EU bailout fund is paying them, and a good chunk of everything else. At some stage in the future we may end up paying for it (but I'm of the opinion that we will default by at least 25% though it won't be called a default).
If we weren't getting a bail out we'd be borrowing money at around 10% for current expenditure. That would cost much more than the repaying the bond holders.
Sorry for letting the facts get in the way.

 

[TarfHead]

At the moment the IMF/EU bailout fund is paying them, and a good chunk of everything else.

But ..

The money from the IMF/EU is a loan, so is, I assume, being repaid. Or is the interest being allowed to stack up against the principal ?

If it is being repaid, then those repayments are coming from Government income, i.e. taxation, levies, etc.

Yes ?
No ?

 

[Purple]

But ..

The money from the IMF/EU is a loan, so is, I assume, being repaid. Or is the interest being allowed to stack up against the principal ?

If it is being repaid, then those repayments are coming from Government income, i.e. taxation, levies, etc.

Yes ?
No ?

Yes, but the interest bill if we borrowed on the open market would be at least 3 times as high. That would be bigger than all of the repayment s we are currently being asked to make.

 

[z107]

At the moment the IMF/EU bailout fund is paying them, and a good chunk of everything else. At some stage in the future we may end up paying for it (but I'm of the opinion that we will default by at least 25% though it won't be called a default).
If we weren't getting a bail out we'd be borrowing money at around 10% for current expenditure. That would cost much more than the repaying the bond holders.
Sorry for letting the facts get in the way.

...and who is paying back the IMF/EU bailout fund? Many of these cuts and new taxes were introduced as a condition of that bailout.

Do you understand now?

There are two problems:
1. Ireland's huge overspend Vs Income
2. paying for bust banks, and giving money to bondholders, unsecured and otherwise.

We (and future generations) are paying for both.