Is an Eircom League club a good buy?

[almo]

I was out for dinner last night with friends here and we were talking about soccer and the ridiculous state of the club scene here (Croatia). Then I was asked about my experience with Shels and that they were approached by a dodgy character (like with like?) this year and how they're such a bad financial state. I remembered Ollie Byrne saying that if someone walked in with a million euros the club was theirs. But what are Eircom League clubs worth?

 

[ClubMan]

But what are Eircom League clubs worth?

Depends on the club, the players they have and - probably most importantly - the fixed assets that they own. For example Bohs are currently closing a deal on selling Dalyer for a total package (including a new stadium near Ballymun as part of the package) worth c. €60M but they would be unusual in eL circles in owning a ground of that value outright (or owning a ground at all!). I don't know of any eL club that has managed to balance their books consistently in recent years so, right now, an eL club will always lose you money and, personally, I don't see anything to suggest that this will change or that the (semi)professional football in Ireland will become a sustainable venture any time soon. To paraphrase an old cliché about the airline business (?) - how do you become a millionaire? Start off as a billionaire and then buy a football club!

 

[Arthur Daley]

I think it's pretty clear that football clubs in Ireland have lost money for decades so if people are sniffing around looking at it as an investment I think they must be desperate.

 

[almo]

I didn't know it was near Ballymun, great catchment area and near to home! I missed a lot of the Shels saga, but I was certain I read that Ollie was looking for a million, but it sounded just like a franchise (which I guess Shels are in many ways). Do they own Tolka or have a long leasehold?

 

[mmclo]

I wonder...Irish clubs have come close to qualifying for european competition. A reasonable investment of a few million would lead to complete domination domestically and a good chance of making the group stages of European competition with large TV income then. This would certainly be the case if they made the group stages of the champions league.

 

[almo]

Just to appear in the group stage they get 3million, that doesn't account for gate, merchandise etc.

 

[Guest127]

dundalk (believe it or not 2nd most successful club in loi) have been struggling for the past 5/6 years. first a co-op was formed at €100 per head. about 800 members. next year every member was asked for anothr €25. on top of that there sponsorship, bar receipts, lotto draw, etc etc and still within 3 years they were back at nearly 1m in debt. sold a field at the back of oriel park for around €800,000 and sold the club to the same person. from what I hear he put in €130,000 last year but said as a businessman he wouldn't do it again, and that the club has to be run on a commercial basis.since then they have lifted the pitch and made it the first artificial pitch in these islands for competitive football. the pitch is currently netting them around €2,500 per week in rent. the ground has been modernised (the old oriel was getting very shabby round the edges) new dressing rooms are in the pipeline and I think the bar is going to be extended. still won't be able to afford even semi pro football as the gates are just not there. and don't forget that Dundalk came the closest of any irish team in reaching the q/f of the old european cup in 1979. nosesy joe will probably have better info than me but the rumour is that drogheda are being funded big time by 3 local business men. [broken link removed] about the pitch and www.dundalkfc.com about the club. (and yes I do have a season ticket) the bar in the fifa picture is the upstairs bar - there's two bars in oriel.

 

[ClubMan]

Do they own Tolka or have a long leasehold?

As far as I know they had a long (part?) leasehold which they sold for a few million a few years ago and have spent most or all of it already. Hence their eagerness to groundshare in a newly developed Dalyer at a relative pittance paid to Bohs - a prospective deal backed by the FAI and government which the Bohs members and board thankfully rejected. I think the deal valued Dalyer at about €10M - a laughable figure given the current deal being closed by Bohs.

 

[almo]

I know personally that Shels were €1million in debt when tey took on Rejkavik in the 1st Rd of the CL in 2004, but they brought in €4million between then and the UEFA Cup loss, yet the turn of 2005 and they were €1million in debt again. I still don't understand how they did it (even buying in Glen Crowe and a host of other players), even with the mob working at the club. I don't understand how Shels can continue limping on.

My love for Dundalk was diluted somewht when the Co-Op came in and there was some very strange dealings (and disrespect for those who'd been backing the club) and some really good young players ruined, young Martin springs to mind. Oriel Park was always such a magnificent spot, beautiful playing surface and great atmosphere, and there is a really vibrant local soccer scene and a lot of cross over between the sports, but it would appear the squabbles and poor promotion has seen an equally disorganised GAA take off.

Is Gerry Matthews going to continue putting in cash Cuchulainn?

 

[huskerdu]

I agree with you entirely Almo about the co-op. They did not have the
financial ability ot manage the club on a week to week basis and didn't realise the work it would take.

I dont believe that Gerry Matthews will last long, when he realises how
much work and money it is going to take in the long term.
The only answer, as Cuchullain has pointed out it to make Oriel Park a viable
business. The big issue is getting back to where we belong - the Premier Division.

To answer the OPs question - LoI clubs have get massive debts, run at a loss and are a money sink.

 

[Guest127]

the co-op was doomed to failure - bad feeling between the some of the co-op members and the past board and some very genuine people who had a genuine love of the club at heart ( the travel club as an example, the bingo on tuesdays as another) whom they alienated straight away. also most of the members weren't up to the task, hence hiring of dud management and large debt once again. the less said about the last ceo the better. afaik gerry matthews says that as long as DFC survives he doesn't particulary care whether they play in oriel or some other greenfield site but oriel isn't theirs to sell, long lease of which 99 years still to run. the club is currently being run as a business, just visit the website and see the list of sponsors, dog night was a success, Christmas dinner night now coming up (€100 a pop) oriel bar booked out for birthday parties etc, good attendances in the latter part of the season ( those first four losses on the trot not alone left us with an uphill mountain to climb but also would have had a very adverse impact on gate receipts).and theres no doubt money has been spent on oriel in the past year ( I know you are in Croatia Almo) ie new floodlights, new building going on at the town side of the ground where the old toilets used to be,surface took a while to get used to but we are all used to it now and while some people might think it gives dundalk a home advantage just look at the away results this year played 18 won 12 lost 4 drew 2 and two of those losses were in the first 4 games. and in the play off against Waterford won the away game too. so the pitch not an obvious advantage. I agree with huskerdu about dundalk having to get back into the premier. if we don't it will be real bad luck. ie winning a play off and still not getting promoted. and dont forget that when we were relegated it was the first and only time that 3 teams were relegated and we had more points than the bottom two teams combined! ( and we won the cup that year - clubman) gerry matthews has built up a very solid team around him at oriel but I dont think he intends to pump money into the club willy nilly.

 

[Arthur Daley]

Yes Dundalk should be in the Premier. Otherwise it's like having Liverpool playing in the championship.

Probably the same goes for Shamrock rovers

 

[ClubMan]

If logic prevailed then Rovers (winners of the First Division title) and Dundalk (winners of the play off) would be promoted to the Premier Division for 2007 . However this is the eL/FAI that we're dealing with and up to recently the "plan" was that there would be no promotion/relegation for this season in preparation for a proper overhaul of the league structure in 2008 until they decided (or did they!) that there would be.

Unfortunately the big issue here is making the league as a whole a viable/sustainable proposition and, as a long time follower, I simply don't see this happening.

And the answer to the original question is obviously "no".

 

[Arthur Daley]

It always seemed to me that if a semi pro or pro league was to be sustained there would have to be cull of clubs. There are too many as it is, and some mergers would be the right approach (Derry and Finn Harps, Dundalk and Drogheda) but this is unlikely due to local squabbles I know. Maybe 8 clubs playing in a pro league might work and 3 of those clubs would be Dublin based.

 

[Guest127]

AD: clubs would soon get fed up playing each other and fans would too. going back to clubmans point of course SR & Dundalk should be promoted, one to replace Dublin City and one on a promotion/relegation basis. an alternative would be for one season only all 21 teams would play in one division with the top twelve in the premier and the bottom 9 joined by a new club to make up ( or even 3 new clubs) the 1st division. Tralee, Castlebar, Cavan, Mullingar, Clonmel, Navan etc might be able to apply. I dont have the latest census figures so I dont know which of the above would have the greater attendance potential. or even a 2nd cork team, I can recall Cork Celtic and Cork Hibernians in the league in the 60/70's

 

[almo]

Just a quick note (I'm reading with delight at this discussion) the EL is dead so long as it is a closed shop, in my humble opinion, there has to be a pyramid structure of sorts in place with access to greater prizes that it would involve. For eg, my Uncle was a lifelong member of Tolka Rovers, they won the junior cup and had a ground and set up (with finances) that would have matched them up with the LoI, then Tony O'Connell went to Ashtownvilla and that club went from strength to strength (okay, a little weak now) with cup runs and the like. Should they, or Tolka, or St. Mochta's, Verona (naming local sides I know) have had a chance to progress up the ranks in a German format - 1st and 2nd div's, beneath them 2 regional leagues, below them feeder sub-regions and so on. I worked with clubs in Germany and see how little clubs with a good squad, investment or such, can battle up to the 2nd division and (like Aachen) get into Europe. But in the EL they "invite" clubs.

 

[car]

A footballing feeder system utopia ala GAA and rugby is what you describe. Tolka are still only a decent junior side along with several others. While Ashtown villa are gone, the aptly named phoenix athletic that are in their place will be even bigger with the new ground being built out past mulhuddart. The other junior clubs are just that too, theyve never made any inroads to bridge the gap between the bigger intermediate clubs, wayside, cherry orchard, bluebell, glenmore etc. All of which could have gone LOI at some stage or another over the past 20 years. Too much hassle, too much money required.
theres few that could support it now, of the rural towns those that have teams in the u21s league struggle to hold their own. Navan has no backbone for it even with half its pop. being from dublin. tralee couldnt hold an intermediate side together, who wants a castlebar side in it, hours on a bus. Id say only Mullingar who've threatened for a while, theyve a fine setup but whats the most theyre ever gonna get to a match? Half of their paid u21s have been made up of dublin players. Clonmel might be able for it too, great junior tradition down there.
Really though, merge at least 2 of the dublin clubs (like thats gonna ever happen) and set the cap on wages to income as theyre trying to do in england so no more then (I think) 50% of income goes on wages. Else you may as well light a fire with the bank notes. And change the suits at the top of the FAI and EL so they market the league ala the IRFU and the GAA have done for the last 10 years. EL as a product is not worth buying into.

 

[Guest127]

on the wages front. think that from next season on the max a club can spend on wages is 65% of total income. where that income comes from will probably be debatable. when I first followed Dundalk it was the norm to 'reduce' the size of gates as they were spllit with the away team, but for that past 20 odd years the home team keeps their own gate and pay the officials out of it. so a home gate has to 'last' two weeks, which in the case of Shelbourne obviously wasn't happening.

 

[huskerdu]

The gate is still split for cup games which does lead to a lot of allegations of creative accountancy.

 

[huskerdu]

Cuchulainn, if Dundalk are denied their rightful place in the Premier Division, after winning the playoff, it will not be bad luck, it will be futher proof of the Dublin conspiracy against the rest of the country in general and Dundalk in particular.
You are not showing much of the traditional Dundalk chip on shoulder, I am disappointed.