Irresponsible Commentary on Overseas Property

I must say Ric that Brendan piece is fair comment. Anyone considering buying an investment property abroad should surely undertake research into both the risks ad rewards offered?


If you were to consider legislative risk for, example just one of several primary criteria.

  • In China the Government has introduced anti speculation legislation which has caused prices to fall in parts of Shanghai by as much as 30%. Now was this a foreseeable risk, well China is governed by a an unelected communist party, traditional communist ideology has a particular abhorrence of speculation, unelected governments are more likely to exercise executive powers with impunity.
  • In some Eastern European countries foreigners are required to purchase property through a company. I consider this a risk as it allows the government to differentiate between domestic owners and foreign owners by simply altering company law in such a way as to place non domestic owners at a disadvantage.


However you cant eliminate risk, you can attempt to quantify it and compare risk/reward across several investment options though. I get the impression that many Irish investors look no further than the asking price and the agents projection of rental income, do a quick tally and arrive at, 'It’s a no brainer’
 
Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

Theo said:
In fact,, many dotcom companies have done extraordinarily well. (FTD.com, eBAY, yahoo.com, google.com, i could go to valuelines and list about 50 others but my point is made). The crowd only hears about the failures, and the crowd generally relies on the newspapers and rte for their information. The crowd sit on the fence and the crowd make 5% p.a. on their so called managed fund investments because that's what the average crowd expects.
Meanwhile, real investors are researching the market for themselves and investing what the crowd would see as substantial sums of money in their education, but what the crowd doesn't see is the return on that education that is being made.
The OP is absolutely right. The best way to weed out those with blanket opinions is to ask them how their investments have done. If its 5-8% p.a., then don't listen to any of them. If anyone is happy making those returns when there is significnatly more to be had for a little effort, then stay working at your job and good luck to you.
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yes a few dot.com companies didnt lose 90% of value but majority did and even the more diversified nasdaq is less than half what it was in 2001. 5-7% is not too bad for the average man as it has low risk ,you are talking about taking on higher risk with hope of higher return,but no matter how well you educate yourself theres no guanantees,you see many top investment professionals losing their shirts when high risk road is taken.anyone can make money in a bull market without any innate ability.
 
OK - here is a bullet pointed list of comments by Ric that need supporting evidence or else run the risk of being dismissed as groundless rants:
  • Once again in today's INDO there is blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas. [Already proven as incorrect above]
  • Last week Brendan who occupies the important role as Chairman of the Consumer Panel at IFSRA described overseas property as "speculation" and "gambling". [Specific quotations please?]
  • What does this tell us of the panel? [Was he speaking in a personal or official IFSRA CP capacity?]
  • I find it extraordinary that Brendan and others should condemn the entire world! [Quotes/evidence please?]
  • Blanket comments about rip offs and bubbles displays plain ignorance of the subject. [Context/quotes/evidence please?]
  • I find it extraordinary that ... knowledge of investment property is limited to slogans like those used by Brendan who should know better. [Quotes/evidence please?]
  • It was cringing to hear Brendan refer to a waterless wasteland land last week on the radio only to be corrected by one of its inhabitants on such a basic matter like desalinisation. [Context/quotes please?]
  • There appears to be a lot of hot air being blown about [Where?]
  • It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. [Quotes/evidence please?]
  • More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late. [Clarification please?]
 
Anybody got any thoughts about Quinlan investments in eastern Europe?,I'm thinking of getting involved
 
Clubman you asked for the link see Tuesday about 6.40pm. "Generally speaking overseas holiday locations I would not consider them investments they are somewhere between speculation and gambling.............this is very close to gambling" These comments were made without even a basic understanding it appears about desalinisation and condemn investors in Dubai as well. This is precisely why I have made the comments above.
 
Ric said:
Clubman you asked for the link see Tuesday about 6.40pm.
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Is the "Carlos, representative of the Cape Verdean government" in that radio clip, the same Carlos that posts exclusively on Cape Verde here?
 
Ric said:
Clubman, there was an interview with Matt Cooper last week. Brendan needs to take greater care.
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Speaking of backing up claims/assertions — I heard that interview — extremely short, in comparison with the time allotted to the bould Eddie, the previous evening (I heard that one too, and posted a link here, at the time, although by now it's presumably gone).

On balance, Brendan's comments were largely to the effect that a potential investor 'needs to take greater care' than to take as gospel the hype coming from Liberty Assets and their roadshow. If he described overseas property investment as 'speculation' and 'gambling', it was in the context of someone signing over their €160K without taking independent advice and checking things out for themselves...

So, Ric, unless you can adduce some specific, factual references to back up your own 'blanket' claims — not solely based on your own wealth of 'take-it-from-me' experience and purported, unspecified 'research' — I'm inclined to suspect that the balance of 'irresponsibility' lies elsewhere...
 
Ric said:
Clubman you asked for the link see Tuesday about 6.40pm. "Generally speaking overseas holiday locations I would not consider them investments they are somewhere between speculation and gambling.............this is very close to gambling" These comments were made without even a basic understanding it appears about desalinisation and condemn investors in Dubai as well. This is precisely why I have made the comments above.
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Thanks. So Brendan gave what was presumably his personal (not official IFSFA Consumer Panel or Askaboutmoney.com) opinion on such investments and you disagree as is your prerogative? Nothing about the general attitude of the IFSRA CP or AAM generally can be inferred from these comments as you suggest. I don't see how that supports all of the other issues/claims that you raise above. In particular far from illustrating that there is a blanket condemnation or dismissal of foreign property investment at work here on AAM, on the part of the IFSRA CP or in the Indo those comments don't even prove that Brendan issues such blanket condemnations/dismissals himself!

Feel free to address some of the other bullet point issues highlighted above when you get a chance.
 
Hi Ric -
Personally, I feel that the many skeptical views expressed on AAM in relation to overseas property have been just that - skeptical, not critical.

It is extremely important that you declare professional interest you have in this matter, given that you are criticising a named individual (in this case Brendan) while using an pseudonym. You claim to have a deep knowledge on this topic. Readers are entitled to understand if this knowledge arises from your profession. I'm not expecting you to breach any confidences or identify yourself - but you do need to explain where you are coming from.
 
If Brendan goes on radio espousing views that are based on annonymous comments that appear here then isn't it reasonable to expect annonymous criticism? (With very few exceptions such as Rainyday and Brendan and a tiny handful of others all other posters are annonymous including those posting about property). If that becomes the basis of public broadcast then it is reasonable to expect criticism. I respect any person who puts their head up and writes or contributes to public debate be it an economist, an accountant or opinionated people like Hobbs etc but in Brendans case in this instance he is drawing on his AAM platform which is open to annonymous ill-informed commentary including from vested interests.
 
Ric,

You are entitled to disagree with Brendan but that doesnt make Brendans's comments "blanket comments" or generalisations. He is also entitled to his opinion and just because he is the founder of AAM and a great contributer doesnt mean that he is drawing on his AAM platform everytime he speaks.

Personally I think you need to answer Rainyday and ClubMans questions (for actual quotes/context) or else the thread should be closed.

cas.
 
Effectively, the sum of the Independent article to me is "do your homework before you buy or you will get burnt". I don't see what's so irresponsible about that. I'd have to question how such advice could adversely affect someone like Ric who claims to have done quite well out of international property investments over the course.

Personally, I have moral issues around the whole question of international property investment anyway, between holiday homes and investment complexes, so I'm hardly a balanced observer. I will say this though: I'm mesmerised by the number of people who, on realising the complexity of doing anything involving business or property here in Ireland, think it'll be easier somewhere else when they can't speak the local language.
 
Ric

To be fair I think that the share of airtime given to the joys of buying property overseas on programmes broadcast on RTE, BBC, Channel 4 and UTV etc. compared to the rather docile ‘careful now’ remarks by Brendan will hardly cause an overseas property crash. In fact Brendan might be doing existing owners of overseas investors a favour by encouraging a more rational considered approach to buying abroad, thus supporting existing valuations with sustainable long term demand. I wonder if you would have complained as robustly if an agent peddling flats in far flung locations was given airtime, a much more frequent occurrence in my opinion.

The Spanish market’ which has slowed considerably, did so because of pricing pressure, poor returns and alternative investment competition, and certainly not because of adverse press coverage.
 
I notice Ric that despite several invitations to do so, you have not stated whether you have any professional interest in overseas property.

You certainly seem to have an emotional (financial?) interest in the discussion.
 
Ric also continues to evade the issue of substantiating most of the claims that he has made in this thread and which I have summarised in bullet point form above for ease of reference. Of the two that have been addressed to any reasonable extent neither stands up to scrutiny as a valid accusation on the basis of the evidence provided (viz. the Indo article does not issue a "blanket condemnation" of foreign property investment and Brendan's quoted comments above do not seem to purport to be anything other than his personal - rather than official IFSRA CP/AAM - opinions on the matter and don't necessarily represent a blanket dismissal/condemnation of foreign property investment either).
 
Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

Ric said:
You need to consider that a great many investors see these examples as transparently as you and probably even more so because of practical overseas experience.
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Again Ric, it's not people like that who are vulnerable in this situation, they'll do their own research & make decisions based on calculated analysis. There are always boom/bull markets in the world for someone who has the time & talent to find them - it's people who now seem to think that all property, anywhere just shoots up by definition.
 
No problem, you all reveal your names, professions and your investment property interests and I'll swap how about that? As for Clubman I have made my point quite precisely and proved where a blanket comment was made that lacked analysis. I didn't expect you to agree and you more or less rallied around your previous opinions as I thought you would but at least henceforth you might be more considered in your views and expect annonymous criticism much like yours when you screw up. End.
 
While I'm sitting here reading this thread on overseas property, the following conversation has just occoured b/t two co-workers a few desks away.

CW1 (gets off phone) "eh.. it looks like I'm buying an apartment.. apparently"

CW2 "Great, where is it..?"

CW1 "It's in the caribean, on one of the islands"

CW2 "which one..?"

CW1 "emm... Saint.. Saint.. Saint something or other. I think the 2nd word has starts with an 'F'".

CW2 "Nice one man, you'll make a mint."


It's case-closed time people :rolleyes:
 
Ric said:
A great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years acquiring both capital gains and relatively higher rental yields than at home. Financial firms like, Quinlan Private, Warren, Davy's, Merrion, Irish Life, Hibernian, Friends First have collectivey raised billions for overseas investment and huge numbers of individuals have similarly invested. It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late.
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Ric,

just so as you know: stating that financial firms like X, Y and Z have raised billions for overseas investment is not proof that a great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years, etc, etc, etc.

Additionally, your analysis of the article concerned is totally flawed. What it boils down to is "if you are not careful, you may well get screwed over". That's not the picture you paint. As such, I don't know if I can take your complaints with any credibility at all.

And although I don't personally care whether you cough up vested interest info or not, the impression I have is that it does not benefit you to have people actually taking care when they are coughing up vast numbers of euros to buy property abroad.

So, the question I would like an answer to is this: Does it hurt you directly either financially or professionally if people who have money to spend actually take a little bit of care in how they spend it? I don't care what your name is or who you work for, but I am interested in an answer to that question.

You seem to be reticent on this type of information however...
 
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