Ireland has the highest consumer prices in the EU
- Thread starter joe sod
- Start date
basilbrush
Registered User
- Messages
- 155
I want to start by noting that I do not have a firm opinion on how "big" government should be, and that, if forced to choose, I would probably say that the welfare system in Ireland is too rewarding of failure, however I will also say that after having lived in countries with a weaker safety net, people in Ireland are nicer to each other. There might be other reasons for that, but maybe feeling like you are part of a caring society, where people will willingly make sacrifices for each other even when that generosity is not appreciated, is part of it, and might be worth more than the extra taxes that we have to pay to enable it.
I agree completely. People who abuse that system undermine it.
but thats really because the corporation tax take basically pays the welfare bill, they are both basically around 20 billion euros. If people really felt that the tax taken off their wages is paying for Johnny or Brid to stay at home all day then I doubt people would be so nice about it. Corporation tax gives the government an out from taking difficult decisions. The big issue now is that defence is chronically underfunded and it looks like Ireland is going to have to spend way more now on defence,
If pricing regulations were brought in so that you did not have to have a club card or app or spend €50 to get value, that would help (I assure you that Mrs Heffernan does not give €10 from the goodness of her heart)
Similarly, if utilities did not give some customers 26%-41% discounts, that would bring the general price down.
From what I know, no other country except the UK has a "card" system in order to get a reasonable price and similarly utilities in Europe don't have these ( currently unavailable) huge discounts that punish the loyal customer.
The only way they can offer these discounts is by overcharging the customer that does not use these cards
Similarly, if utilities did not give some customers 26%-41% discounts, that would bring the general price down.
From what I know, no other country except the UK has a "card" system in order to get a reasonable price and similarly utilities in Europe don't have these ( currently unavailable) huge discounts that punish the loyal customer.
The only way they can offer these discounts is by overcharging the customer that does not use these cards
I was in Poland recently and major discount supermarket has loyalty card there, the discount prices displayed are only available with the discount card. Thats what they ask you first at the checkout (in polish obviously) "Do you have the loyalty card".
The discount card for the Biedronka shop (and other shops): how to get one, how it works, what benefits it offers » Типичная Польша
Is it possible to make shopping at a regular grocery store more profitable? Is it possible to receive personalized offers and discounts from the shop? Is getting gifts for purchases also realistic? Sure, it's all doable, all you need to do is have a discount card in your wallet (or phone) for...
typicalpoland.com
Although we share one thing with one part of the UK, MUP the ridiculous minimum unit pricing for alcohol, nobody in Europe or most of UK has this and nobody is going to copy us here either. This policy alone was responsible for pushing Ireland to the top of the european price index and shooting us above the Scandinavians
I'd be in favour of MUP. I know my own GP has said he is already seeing less alcohol issues with younger people.I was in Poland recently and major discount supermarket has loyalty card there, the discount prices displayed are only available with the discount card. Thats what they ask you first at the checkout (in polish obviously) "Do you have the loyalty card".
The discount card for the Biedronka shop (and other shops): how to get one, how it works, what benefits it offers » Типичная Польша
Is it possible to make shopping at a regular grocery store more profitable? Is it possible to receive personalized offers and discounts from the shop? Is getting gifts for purchases also realistic? Sure, it's all doable, all you need to do is have a discount card in your wallet (or phone) for...
Although we share one thing with one part of the UK, MUP the ridiculous minimum unit pricing for alcohol, nobody in Europe or most of UK has this and nobody is going to copy us here either. This policy alone was responsible for pushing Ireland to the top of the european price index and shooting us above the Scandinavians
Very few of those who do have an addiction will not benefit, but the hope is that the current young generation will see a lower addiction rate as alcohol is not used as a loss leader by supermarkets. (In Dec 2021 the ex tax/vat price of 24 Heineken at one point was 72c - 3c a can)
To tie that to MUP is very dubious.
There was already a trend pre MUP of consumption dropping and especially in that demographic.
Pubs were closed for considerable period during covid.
and the young people have just replaced alcohol with cocaine, at least with alcohol you don't have dealers coming to your house threatening to burn you out if you don't come up with 10 thousand by tomorrow , also horrendous health issues with drug abuse
Right Winger
Registered User
- Messages
- 293
The link between price and alcohol abuse is dubious. Mediterranean cultures tend to have low alcohol prices, wide availability and far lower rates of alcohol abuse. (Apart from Northern European tourists!) Scandinavia tends to have high alcohol prices, very restricted availability and quite high rates of alcohol problems. Russia has both low prices and high rates of alcohol problems.
In other words, the incidence of problems doesn't appear to be a function of price. It's far more to do with societal culture.
Also notable that MUP doesn't affect the vintner's lobby, a grouping with outsize political influence, but instead penalises their competitors. Funny, that.
I was in a very ordinary Dublin "gastropub" for lunch last week and a very nice fish and chips was 15.95 which isn't too bad these days. But the accompanying Coke Zero was €3.30 for a 200ml bottle which wasn't even chilled. That's a complete price gouge.
And absolutely nothing to do with MUP.
Last edited:
Early Riser
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,643
MUP applies to any off-sales from pubs. Do any pubs offer below MUP prices for drinking in (€1 for a half-pint of beer or a small glass of wine) ?
In Scotland and Wales (which have similar social relationship with alcohol to Ireland) MUP decreased alcohol sales by 7% to 9%. The main reduction was in households which had the highest consumption levels pre-MUP, which was the target group.
In Scotland, MUP is credited with decreasing alcohol-induced hospitalisation by 4% and alcohol-induced deaths by 14%.
See: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(21)00052-9/fulltext and https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)00497-X/fulltext
Right Winger
Registered User
- Messages
- 293
Perhaps COVID lockdown had something to do with the numbers too?
Early Riser
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,643
Article abut it in today's IT: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2023/06/25/irelands-high-price-culture-who-is-to-blame/
A suggestion is that Irish consumer culture is partially to blame:
"The role we as consumers play in this high-price culture isn’t quantifiable but we do seem to be considered a pushover compared with our European counterparts. Part of this is that Irish people have a tendency to conflate frugality with stinginess, hence we don’t like to make a fuss about money even in the face of bad service or a lack of value. Questioning a bill is form a torture for many.
Irish consumers also tend to be suspicious of cheaper products, equating price with quality when the relationship doesn’t always hold. Surveys show shoppers here tend to prefer branded goods over own-label products at a level that’s not replicated elsewhere.
While part of the grocery market here is discount, the main segment isn’t, meaning you can have the same products being sold at different prices almost in the same vicinity, suggesting price competition is still relatively low. In Germany, the entire supermarket offering is discount.
“What happens in Germany is that everything is a discounter, their main supermarkets are the discounters,” Daragh Cassidy, head of communications at price comparison website Bonkers.ie, says. “You just wouldn’t have a situation where something costs half the price across the road because all the Germans would go to the cheaper place,” he says.
“Watching prices or shopping around is kind of looked down on here,” Cassidy says. People are more careful with their money in Europe, he says, noting Ireland has a greater amount of convenient stores, where the mark-up in prices is considerable"
A suggestion is that Irish consumer culture is partially to blame:
"The role we as consumers play in this high-price culture isn’t quantifiable but we do seem to be considered a pushover compared with our European counterparts. Part of this is that Irish people have a tendency to conflate frugality with stinginess, hence we don’t like to make a fuss about money even in the face of bad service or a lack of value. Questioning a bill is form a torture for many.
Irish consumers also tend to be suspicious of cheaper products, equating price with quality when the relationship doesn’t always hold. Surveys show shoppers here tend to prefer branded goods over own-label products at a level that’s not replicated elsewhere.
While part of the grocery market here is discount, the main segment isn’t, meaning you can have the same products being sold at different prices almost in the same vicinity, suggesting price competition is still relatively low. In Germany, the entire supermarket offering is discount.
“What happens in Germany is that everything is a discounter, their main supermarkets are the discounters,” Daragh Cassidy, head of communications at price comparison website Bonkers.ie, says. “You just wouldn’t have a situation where something costs half the price across the road because all the Germans would go to the cheaper place,” he says.
“Watching prices or shopping around is kind of looked down on here,” Cassidy says. People are more careful with their money in Europe, he says, noting Ireland has a greater amount of convenient stores, where the mark-up in prices is considerable"
You are making the error many make on using Irish purchasing power to prices in other countries and many of these price surveys don't take that into account either. If that was taken into account, the survey would throw up a far different result.The link between price and alcohol abuse is dubious. Mediterranean cultures tend to have low alcohol prices, wide availability and far lower rates of alcohol abuse. (Apart from Northern European tourists!) Scandinavia tends to have high alcohol prices, very restricted availability and quite high rates of alcohol problems. Russia has both low prices and high rates of alcohol problems.
In other words, the incidence of problems doesn't appear to be a function of price. It's far more to do with societal culture.
Also notable that MUP doesn't affect the vintner's lobby, a grouping with outsize political influence, but instead penalises their competitors. Funny, that.
I was in a very ordinary Dublin "gastropub" for lunch last week and a very nice fish and chips was 15.95 which isn't too bad these days. But the accompanying Coke Zero was €3.30 for a 200ml bottle which wasn't even chilled. That's a complete price gouge.
Lets take Beer & Portugal as an example. 15 x 330ml local beer (lowest price), on offer for €13.96. Normally €17.45.
A local person on minimum wage (€4.40) needs to work for 3 hours to earn the price (assuming no taxes to pay)
Tesco have 20 x 330ml Heiniken for €25 (clubcard) - usually €30.
A local person here would need to work for just over 2 hours at minimum wage to buy that and have 5 extra bottles. Or 1.5 hours is you use the per ml price.
So in terms of minutes of work earnings, Portugal is twice the Irish price in relation to a local person buying local beer than a local person buying similar beer here. Culture also plays a part, but for local people in many Mediterranean countries, Alcohol is not cheap.
But great that we can go there and take advantage of their low wages via much lower prices, esp in restaurants and bars where wages make up a large part of the pricing
Perhaps COVID lockdown had something to do with the numbers too?
No, they took that into account and it had no effect.
High living standards here to stay, even without windfall taxes, says ESRI report
Irish living standards are above the EU average and are set to stay that way, thanks to high savings and well-paid multinational jobs, a study has found.
m.independent.ie
I don't believe him and all these studies are always based on assumptions that can be dead wrong when reality hits. The fact that ireland has the highest prices in the EU means that our standard of living is lower than comparable income countries simply because that income buys less goods and services. Also the fact that a much higher proportion of our tax take is spent on public salaries and welfare rather than on public infrastructure means that the average guy has a lower standard of living than say a German or Danish citizen . This is because there are less public goods available to him than the average European. This is because the average European has a much higher standard of public infrastructure than the average irish guy.
Also he assumes (wrongly) that you can strip out corporation tax income and everything else will remain the same as if such a scenario wouldn't Also result in a big drop in multinational employment as FDI switches to other cheaper countries with better infrastructure like for example Portugal or Poland
Last edited:
Early Riser
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,643
I haven't read the ESRI report but from the summary in the Indo it is not referring to FDI but to windfall corporation taxes that have next to nothing to do with employment or economic activity in Ireland.
Here is the report: https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/QEC2023SUM_SA_FitzGerald_0.pdf
Last edited:
I'm sure that is backed up with data.
What assumptions? "I don't like your conclusion so your data is wrong or incomplete" is not a worthwhile retort. You need to have facts and data in order to counter his conclusions.
Why do you think that? There are other things that determine standard of living other than consumer prices.
We have very high levels of social transfers (we are a very socialist country) which means we have very low levels of poverty and deprivation. That averages up living standards for low income earners but averages them down for high income earners.
"Using GNI* as a measure of national income, Ireland appears to have an aboveaverage standard of living while, on the basis of household and publicconsumption, Ireland has somewhat lower standard of living, partly because of thehigh rate of saving in Ireland."
This is just from the abstract, but he is using GNI* as a measure of national income rather than the average industrial wage, but nobody else uses GNI* in Europe it is a statistic invented by the CSO because they can't use GDP because of the distorting effects of multinationals and they don't like using GNP probably because the figure is too low for them. Therefore the fact that he uses GNI* as measure already discredits the whole report. Surely he should be using average industrial wage and then seeing how that wage compares to the rest of Europe in terms of buying power and the standard of living that can be achieved by that average industrial in comparison to our EU compatriots. At least that would be meaningful but he probably would not get the answer he is looking for