Inefficient state spending and the Household Charge

[Purple]

A major part of the national debate about the payment or non payment of the household charge revolves around what people are getting for their money. I’ve heard many people say “when they stop wasting the money they have I’ll pay the charge”. I’ve paid the charge because I am in favour of property taxes but I’m delighted to hear this debate taking place. I’m also bemused by it.

Why are people getting so worked up about the state taking €100 from them and then wasting a sizable proportion of it on the inefficient delivery of local services when the state already takes thousands (and in many cases tens of thousands) of Euro from us in income tax and VAT and proportionately wastes just as much or more? Does anyone seriously think there’s less waste in the public Health Service than there is in Local Authorities?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Purple

I am bemused by most of the debate on the Household Charge.

Your point is very valid. Why object to a €100 charge on this basis when the income tax charge is so much higher? Probably because people can.

Imagine the furore if landlords withheld income tax on their rental income because the legal system governing landord and tenants was so inefficient. And they might have a better case.

 

[serotoninsid]

Your point is very valid. Why object to a €100 charge on this basis when the income tax charge is so much higher?
Imagine the furore if landlords withheld income tax on their rental income because the legal system governing landord and tenants was so inefficient. And they might have a better case.

Of course it is because people can! In tandem with that, it's for the reason that Purple highlighted i.e. how public money converts into services (or more to the point, how it doesn't!). Notwithstanding that, there were other groupings who chose non-payment due to other concerns they had.

That's why when you said earlier that the 'no campaign' was highly organised, I queried this. I'm open to correction but I don't think it was orchestrated or well organised at all, that people just took the opportunity to withhold the charge - albeit that their reasoning is wide-ranging. It doesn't seem to be the irish way in the main, to protest greek-style. I think this opportunity was seen as a more acceptable means of protest.

It's much harder for them to withhold income tax, VAT, or PAYE - maybe the former - but the latter two - it's simply impossible - due to the way they're setup. In the case of the former, revenue have serious powers - so anyone who tried to approach non-payment in that way would want to have a strong constitution! It's in that instance that such a thing could only be done if it was highly organised and orchestrated - otherwise, there would be major pain involved.

I’ve paid the charge because I am in favour of property taxes but I’m delighted to hear this debate taking place.

Equally delighted the debate is taking place. It's a major problem in IE that needs to be addressed. There is no will to address it yet - so maybe it's time to force the issue.

Does anyone seriously think there’s less waste in the public Health Service than there is in Local Authorities?

Of course they don't. But, in the first instance, don't we have to start somewhere? Furthermore, how were they to withhold public moneys going towards the Health Service (see reasoning above)?

Maybe if we can start to address these issues, we wouldn't even have a national deficit!

 

[Gervan]

It's because there is a pretence that the money in this new tax is being collected for local spending.
With income tax etc we know it's going into a general pot for wasting, as it has been all along.
The arrogance that makes the politicians feel we will swallow any lie, that is part of what makes us so angry.

 

[truthseeker]

Its because people can - as eloquently described above by serotoninsid.

Its because of the pretence of what it is for.

Its because its the straw thats breaking the camels back.

Its because people have paid large sums in stamp duty, local authority fees and are being asked to pay again.

Its because people pay management fees for local services and feel they are going to be paying twice.

Its because tenants are not being asked to pay - yet they use the local services as much as home owners.

And its because people believed Enda when he said:
"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994

 

[ajapale]

In the UK 25% of local expenditure comes from the Council Tax and the remainder comes from central government.

 

[DonDub]

I am constantly amazed at the staggering inefficiency of virtually every aspect of public life in Ireland. Local government, central government, semi-states etc, are all afflicted by this malaise.

I have no problem paying my fair share of tax, however, I do have a major problem paying taxes that are squandered so blatantly. The blame for this waste lies with the decision makers at every level - government, ministers, senior public servants, senior union officials. I paid the household charge, and while I remain here, I will (reluctantly) pay all taxes levied. If we accept that it is OK not to pay this tax, then why don't we all default on every tax.

We bemoan the exodus of young people from this country. I don't, why should they stay in a country that has consistently proved incapable of real structural reform. Staying means, paying tax that is in large measure - wasted, tying your future to a failed state - where the economy is subjugated to the needs of powerful vested interest groups.

The needle returns to the center........

 

[Mel]

Its because people can - as eloquently described above by serotoninsid.

Its because of the pretence of what it is for.

Its because its the straw thats breaking the camels back.

Its because people have paid large sums in stamp duty, local authority fees and are being asked to pay again.

Its because people pay management fees for local services and feel they are going to be paying twice.

Its because tenants are not being asked to pay - yet they use the local services as much as home owners.

And its because people believed Enda when he said:
"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994

All of the above -

+

It's not a 'Household Charge' - 'Householders' aren't being charged, 'Mortgage-holders are.

It's because many of us already pay bin charges that amount to more than the Household Charge alone plus a government levy on the service!!!

It's because as someone pointed out on another thread, the legislation around relief for those who bought in the peak price years has yet to be enacted, but we are still expected to dig deep for this charge. Why is it a one-way street?

Personally I feel it's the only way to make a statement that might be heard. I really hope that people continue to stand firm on this and get the point across - no more from those are stuck in the middle paying for those on the other ends of the scale.

Edited to add - it's also the fear of opening the floodgates - I've never like signing a blank cheque, which is what this is.

 

[44brendan]

I've paid the charge, but I have a certain sympathty/admiration for those who have'nt paid on the principal that there is a large element of waste in Local Authority spending. This does appear to be a valid arguement, based on commentary on AAM and the general media.
While I don't agree with the general objections to a property tax, I accept that there is an onus on the Government to ensure that any funds collected from this tax are generally applied locally, with an input from the local ratepayers on how the funds should be spent. Have listened to Luke Flanagan and other councellors on the general waste in County Councils around the country, perhaps it's time for Phil Hogan to accept that many people have a concern on these isues and he may obtain greater acceptance of the charge by using a carrot rather than a stick approach!

 

[Pique318]

And its because people believed Enda when he said:
"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994

I don't think anyone would like to be held over a barrel because of what they said 18 years ago.

 

[Jazz01]

It doesn't seem to matter what or when any politician does or say, whether it was 18 years ago or just before a general election - there are no consequences for their actions ... recent history should have taught us that... the future will prove it again...

 

[ali]

I don't agree with the general objections to a property tax

Funny I agree with most of your posts, brendan but not this. I remember a good few months back hearing a german financial guy on the radio talking to Pat Kenny about the issue of property tax and how an elderly person who could potentially have to sell their home due to inability to pay an expensive valuation related property tax my have to sell their home to meet the cost. He said " You do not have an automatic right to live in your home". I remember the words so well. It seemed to me to be so fundamentally unfair that you could have paid a mortgage all your life, raised children, made sacrifices, mended gutters, painted the gates, mowed the lawn etc. and you still don't have a right to live in your home even if you have paid for it.

In my view it should be the most basic right.

A.

Edited to point out that I have registered for the HC .

 

[44brendan]

But is the core arguement of a "wealth tax" not a valid one? I.e. The elderly gemtleman in question could be living in a valueable property, with no mortgage. His income could be low, so that he is unable to pay a value related tax on the property. However, in 3/5 years time he sells that property for say 1M and pockets the proceeds (alternatively he dies and his heirs sell the property). Would it not be more equitable if the result of his inability to pay the tax was that the tax remained charged on the property and in the event of it being sold or transferred the tax would then become payable.
I agree that there should be no question of him being evicted from his property.

 

[Purple]

I am constantly amazed at the staggering inefficiency of virtually every aspect of public life in Ireland. Local government, central government, semi-states etc, are all afflicted by this malaise.

I have no problem paying my fair share of tax, however, I do have a major problem paying taxes that are squandered so blatantly. The blame for this waste lies with the decision makers at every level - government, ministers, senior public servants, senior union officials. I paid the household charge, and while I remain here, I will (reluctantly) pay all taxes levied. If we accept that it is OK not to pay this tax, then why don't we all default on every tax.

Yes, that's my main point.

The next time the government propose pay cuts and job cuts in the public sector will all the people protesting about this charge be as vocal in their support of those cuts?
The same goes for cuts to welfare, childrens allowance etc.

 

[Bronte]

. Have listened to Luke Flanagan and other councellors on the general waste in County Councils around the country, !

What did Luke Flanagan do to stop waste when he was on the county council?

 

[ClubMan]

It's not a 'Household Charge' - 'Householders' aren't being charged, 'Mortgage-holders are.

One's status as a mortgage holder is totally irrelevant as far as liability for the HC goes.

It doesn't seem to matter what or when any politician does or say, whether it was 18 years ago or just before a general election - there are no consequences for their actions

Tell that to FF, PDs, Greens...