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Bigbamboo
Guest
I am aware of that, but unfortunately India isn't one of them.
SunshineSupe
Registered User
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They have already "shared" your responsibility. As many other posters have said:
In the future, try to use something like this to assist your research on visa requirements etc before you go (this is from IATA), but still double and triple check with embassy sites etc:
[broken link removed]
- I'm pretty sure they would have paid a fine to the Indian government because of this; and
- they put you on the return flight for which you weren't even booked to fly on.
In the future, try to use something like this to assist your research on visa requirements etc before you go (this is from IATA), but still double and triple check with embassy sites etc:
[broken link removed]
dereko1969
Registered User
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this is like so many other posts on here lately - It's Always Someone Else's Fault - maybe it should be a new acronym IASEF, everyone is looking to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. using words such as 'duty of care' to blame BA when you didn't bother your barney checking out your obligations prior to flying to india is just passing the buck, you messed up you take the punishment.
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Simeon
Guest
Well said, dereko.
truthseeker
Registered User
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Excellent post and great new acronym, it could even be shortened to give a nice handy 3 letter acronym - SEF.
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Bigbamboo
Guest
Hi Dereko1969 (and similar replies)
I have always accepted full responsibility for not obtaining a visa and, as a seasoned traveller, am still slightly amazed at my stupidity. I am not blaming BA because I didn't have a visa, but I am wondering if they should at least share responsibility for my wasted journey as it broke international agreements and its own internal check-in guideleines by allowing me onto their plane without checking all my travel documents.
BA's Terms & Conditions are very clear about the responsibility of passengers to arrive at check-in with the correct travel documents, but nothing is mentioned about its responsibility not to allow someone to fly without these documents. It is on this issue alone that I am seeking people's views.
dereko1969
Registered User
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Has this question not already been answered on the first page? I suspect that as you flew to Mumbai that you initially boarded in Ireland and perhaps there was a code-share to Heathrow/Gatwick? As was pointed out by somebody else in relation to the Morocco incident your initial check-in was done in Ireland and you were checked straight through to Mumbai so perhaps you should sue Aer Rianta and/or Aer Lingus too? Then add in the Indian Goverment for having such an outrageous immigration policy? Your Internet provider for allowing you to book online without forcing you to become aware of your own obligations? Or the travel agent?
BA should not have allowed you on the flight for their own reasons as it would leave them open to a fine and the possibility of having to bump someone from the return flight. However, that does not mean they are liable to refund you at all, if it were Ryanair you would have been charged the price on the day for the flight, so I think you got away lightly.
BA should not have allowed you on the flight for their own reasons as it would leave them open to a fine and the possibility of having to bump someone from the return flight. However, that does not mean they are liable to refund you at all, if it were Ryanair you would have been charged the price on the day for the flight, so I think you got away lightly.
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Bigbamboo
Guest
Hi Dereko1969
I flew directly to Mumbai from London Heathrow.
I flew directly to Mumbai from London Heathrow.
Two words for travelling: Never presume.
Airlines will check your travel documents when there is a financial onus on them to do so. This is the case when you are flying to a destination where the fines are big US/Canada/Europe. I doubt the fines are big in either in Morocco or India, but I'm just presuming!
Airlines will check your travel documents when there is a financial onus on them to do so. This is the case when you are flying to a destination where the fines are big US/Canada/Europe. I doubt the fines are big in either in Morocco or India, but I'm just presuming!
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Bigbamboo
Guest
Thanks for your reply, majik, and I can tell you that a BA rep at Heathrow told me when I returned that the Indian fine would be considerable. Your response doesn't address my query, however, as what I am trying to find out is this: do airlines have a legal responsibility to check all required travel documents for a passenger before allowing them onto their plane? If they do have this responsibility, then passengers like me can claim some kind of compensation.
Does anybody have a view on this?
Does anybody have a view on this?
Sorry bigbamboo what I clearly meant to say was that most if not all airlines will have 'no liability' whatsoever, all of this is contained in every airlines 'Conditions of Carraige'.
Here are three examples
Aer Lingus:
Here are three examples
Aer Lingus:
British Airways:
Cathay Pacifc
No offence to the OP or anybody else but I don't know why people don't do a bit of research on the ould interweb first before posting!
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Bigbamboo
Guest
Hi majik
Thanks very much indeed for the interest you are showing in my 'case'. It seems to me that the examples you have quoted (I had already checked BA's terms) all refer to an airline's liability for consequential loss, etc in the event that it refuses to allow a passenger to travel on one of its planes because he/she has not provided the necessary travel documents.
But what if it allows the passenger to travel without these documents because it failed to check if the passenger had them? I would have thought that in breaking international regulations and its own strict check-in procedures, it can be argued that BA, at least in part, is liable for any consequential loss and/or emotional distress experienced by the passenger. In short, although I am to blame for turning up at Heathrow without an Indian visa, BA should accept its share of blame for allowing me to travel.
Needless to say, airlines don't mention this in their terms of carriage, but that doesn't mean they aren't liable. Could be an interesting test case.
I am sorry Bigbamboo but I have read BAs 'Conditions of Carraige' section 13 over and over again
And nothing refers to the 'consequential loss' you speak off.
'No liability' applies even if they let you board the aircraft and arrive at your destination. I don't think this stipulation could be any clearer. There is nothing in that section stating that they are liable for anything.
Airlines check travel documents when they are requested to do so by government and as per their internal guidelines. They do not check them for the benefit of passengers. Yes they may have broken internal guidelines but the 'Conditions of Carraige' is your contract with them, nothing else.
In laymans terms that section 13 states that all the responsibility is on the passenger to have their travel documents in order, before, during and after the flight. The airline is not liable regardless of whether or not they request/look at those said documents. Section 13 does say you have to present those documents before check-in BUT DOES NOT say that those said documents need to be validated by an airline representative. This then absolves them of any liability in your case where you travelled with invalid documents.
Bigbambo I am just trying to save you some time and money. Airlines' conditions of carraige are watertight, pursing this matter will get you no where and you'll probably be out of pocket further. Take it as a learning experience and move on. Trust me.
And nothing refers to the 'consequential loss' you speak off.
'No liability' applies even if they let you board the aircraft and arrive at your destination. I don't think this stipulation could be any clearer. There is nothing in that section stating that they are liable for anything.
Airlines check travel documents when they are requested to do so by government and as per their internal guidelines. They do not check them for the benefit of passengers. Yes they may have broken internal guidelines but the 'Conditions of Carraige' is your contract with them, nothing else.
In laymans terms that section 13 states that all the responsibility is on the passenger to have their travel documents in order, before, during and after the flight. The airline is not liable regardless of whether or not they request/look at those said documents. Section 13 does say you have to present those documents before check-in BUT DOES NOT say that those said documents need to be validated by an airline representative. This then absolves them of any liability in your case where you travelled with invalid documents.
Bigbambo I am just trying to save you some time and money. Airlines' conditions of carraige are watertight, pursing this matter will get you no where and you'll probably be out of pocket further. Take it as a learning experience and move on. Trust me.
I think the Terms & Conditions are perfectly clear as to what the responsibilities of the passenger are, and that, so far as I am concerned, is the issue.
A section of the link posted by majik says:
"13a1) You (not us) must:
- check the relevant entry requirements for any country you are visiting and
- present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for your journey."
- you do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
- your passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
- you have not obeyed all relevant laws."
Before you travel, you must present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents you need for your journey. If we ask, you must:
- allow us to take and keep copies of them and
- deposit your passport or equivalent travel document with a member of the crew of the aircraft for safe custody until the end of the flight.
If you are refused entry to a country, you must pay:
- any fine, penalty or charge imposed on us by the government concerned
- any detention costs we are charged
- the fare for transporting you back to your place of departure and
- any other costs we reasonably pay or agree to pay.
13d) You must repay us fines, detention costs and other charges
If we have to pay any fine, penalty, fee, charge or costs (such as detention costs) because you have failed to obey any laws or regulations, or other travel requirements of the country to which you have travelled to or to produce the necessary documents needed by that country, you must repay us the amount we have paid as a result. We may take this amount from the value of any unused part of your ticket, or any of your money we have in our possession."
Check in queues at airports are bad enough as it is, but if everybody's visa paperwork had to be checked out as well I think it would be totally unworkable.
A hard lesson for Bigbamboo, but I can't see how the airline is at fault.
Dublinchick
Registered User
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I know somebody who had a smiliar experience when flying to Mumbai with BA. They travelled 36 hours from Jacksonville Florida to Mumbai only to be put on the same plane back to make the journey back to the US. I couldn't believe that they got annoyed with the airline when they should have taken the time to check whtat the entry requirements to India were....