I am not paying the Household Charge because...

[Marion]

I referred to community in an earlier post.

By this I mean the immediate estate of 50 people where I live.

The broader community would relate to the town where I live.

Marion

 

[truthseeker]

Rural dwellers get

Libraries in their local towns

Lighting on main roads

Playgrounds in local towns

Salted main roads to towns

If people choose to live outside of main urban areas that is their choice and there is a cost to having the privilege to doing this.


Marion

They do, and if they wish to pay the household charge to pay for these things then they are welcome to do so. I, on the other hand, already pay a substantial management fee and they dont, so I feel I am being asked to pay twice.

 

[Marion]

But they might pay for other services like water and sewerage.

We all pay for something.

Marion

 

[truthseeker]

But they might pay for other services like water and sewerage.

We all pay for something.

Marion

I already do pay plenty for services. Its not my fault that the government decided to cut the LA budgets and then expected me, you and the rest of the public to stump up the difference. You cannot continue to squeeze blood out of a stone. The government could address bloat in the public sector, or over generosity/fraud in the social welfare system. Instead they have decided to impose a regressive tax on a home that I cannot sell due to negative equity. Enough is enough. And it appears to be enough for many other people as well.

 

[Marion]

Look I would love not to pay more more from my absolutely pillaged public sector salary for services.

I don' t have children so I could say that I don't want to pay for parks or playgrounds or swimming pools or art programmes or other cultural exhibitions provided by local authorities but I believe they are for the greater benefit of society so I am happy to pay for them.

There are lots of expenses provided for society that I pay for and get no direct benefit but I suck them up.

Marion

 

[truthseeker]

There are lots of expenses provided for society that I pay for and get no direct benefit but I suck them up.

I normally suck it up, but Ive had enough this time.

Ive mentioned it before but the bully boy tactics on this by the government have disgusted me.

We will throw data protection in the bin and go to the ESB.
We will send staff knocking on your door.
There will be death by footpath because you didnt pay.
We will look bad in Europe (on the contrary all international coverage I have seen has been saying fair play to the Irish for making a stand).
You will be a criminal (along with the million other people).
We will go straight to your social welfare payment or bank account.

Are we in North Korea? Are we to have public registrations in the town square overseen by men with guns?

 

[Fiskar]

Look I would love not to pay more more from my absolutely pillaged public sector salary for services.

I don' t have children so I could say that I don't want to pay for parks or art programmes or other cultural exhibitions provided by local authorities but I believe they are for the greater benefit of society so I am happy to pay for them.

There are lots of expenses provided for society that I pay for and get no direct benefit but I suck them up.

Marion

Nice that you can afford to suck them up. Most of us cannot, most of us are being sucked up by PTSB and have nothing left to give.
I disagree that we are getting services from our local authorities, when I was chairman of our residents association their favorite hobby was not answering phone calss and changing staff around like a monopoly board. Planning enforcement powers existed, they were never used. I never see a council worker in our estate, conviently it was taken in charge last year with the road in bits after 2 bad winters. council will not and never will repair it.

 

[Marion]

Data protection is not an issue this has been confirmed by Billy Hawkes our data commissioner.

Tv license inspectors call - what' s new?
Death by footpaths ?
Ask the Greeks
Criminal Not sure
Absolutely. Agree totally.

No. In a totally democratic society where people were asked to pay for charges and it was understood that we were responsible for our own actions. Pay up on time or pay up later with a penalty

Seems straight forward to me.

By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own?

I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.

We all have our expense priorities. My car is 10 years old. How old is yours?


I don't expect you to answer the questions they are posed so that people can reflect on what their expense priorities are.

I can "afford" expenses because I forgoe other expenses.

We all have our priorities.



Marion

 

[serotoninsid]

Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure?

Join the dots. Your being asked to pay a service charge. For the most part, this involves services provided by your local council (with some exceptions). Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere? - your local councils planning office. Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion? Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).

If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded?

See my initial point above. Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.

Its not for the council to do the developers job

Again, see above. It's not for the council to DO the developers job - but it IS for the council to enforce adherence to planning. Many will say, 'but the developers are long gone'. That may be - but the co.co. planners took a bond (or insurance against non-completion) right?

I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations.

If you decide to pay this service charge, YOU - as a citizen - will be paying your service provider (your co.co.) - the very same service provider that is culpable in the hundreds of developments that are left in limbo. Not only that but they have been very happy to leave them in a state whereby they can turn around and say, 'they're not finished so we can't take them in-charge'.

So...there needs to be a seismic shift in understanding that these authorities are expected to deliver tangible services with public money before they are given more of it! Monagt called it right earlier in this thread when he said it's akin to giving an alcoholic access to an open bar. Hasn't enough money been squandered over the last few years without adding fuel to the fire?
From a personal point of view, they must take my estate in-charge before I will pay that ruddy charge. I advise all others in the same situation (of which there are countless thousands) to take the same approach. If an estate is not taken in charge, it's not complete - so the waiver should apply.

No. In a totally democratic society where people were asked to pay for charges and it was understood that we were responsible for our own actions. Pay up on time or pay up later with a penalty. Seems straight forward to me.

And in a totally democratic society, the expectation would be that when a government (who unashamedly campaigned on the back of renegotiation) is elected with a clear mandate to renegotiate, they would do exactly that....but I guess the irish application of democracy needs a bit of refining before it becomes the finished article....(only teetering off topic to cover the 'democracy' angle discussed above - and within the context of this discussion)

 

[serotoninsid]

Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure?

Join the dots. Your being asked to pay a service charge. For the most part, this involves services provided by your local council (with some exceptions). Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere? - your local councils planning office. Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion? Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).

If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded?

See my initial point above. Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.

Its not for the council to do the developers job

Again, see above. It's not for the council to DO the developers job - but it IS for the council to enforce adherence to planning. Many will say, 'but the developers are long gone'. That may be - but the co.co. planners took a bond (or insurance against non-completion) right?

I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations.

If you decide to pay this service charge, YOU - as a citizen - will be paying your service provider (your co.co.) - the very same service provider that is culpable in the hundreds of developments that are left in limbo. Not only that but they have been very happy to leave them in a state whereby they can turn around and say, 'there not finished so we can't take them in-charge'.

So...there needs to be a seismic shift in understanding that these authorities are expected to deliver tangible services with public money before they are given more of it! Monagt called it right earlier in this thread when he said it's akin to giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.
From a personal point of view, they must take my estate in-charge before I will pay that ruddy charge. I advise all others in the same situation (of which there are countless thousands) to take the same approach.

 

[swauna78]

Rural dwellers get

Libraries in their local towns

Lighting on main roads

Playgrounds in local towns

Salted main roads to towns

If people choose to live outside of main urban areas that is their choice and there is a cost to having the privilege to doing this. ??? I bought in a non-urban area because i couldn't afford a home in an urban area when we bought in 2006! Where is the 'privilege' in this then?


Marion

We don't have a library in our local town.
We have no playground in our local town, this is something we are trying to fundraise for privately at the moment.
There are many roads around here into town and only 1 of them gets salted sporadically during bad weather.

 

[Bronte]

There are many roads around here into town and only 1 of them gets salted sporadically during bad weather.

And all the people in your local town only use local roads. They never travel anywhere else? Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.

 

[swauna78]

By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own?

I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.

We all have our expense priorities. My car is 10 years old. How old is yours?


I don't expect you to answer the questions they are posed so that people can reflect on what their expense priorities are.

I can "afford" expenses because I forgoe other expenses.

We all have our priorities.



Marion

I (well, actually PTSB) own 1 house which is our family home also.
I also have cut down expenses everywhere I can...
We don't go out. We don't go on holidays. We are careful where and when we grocery shop. My DD gets hand-me-down clothes and toys from her cousins. We don't have Sky Television. We have a basic broadband package which we need because I work from home 3 days a week. We changed to a cheaper electricity provider and refuse provider. I shop around for house and car insurance when the time comes. I don't buy clothes for myself. I get my hair cut once per year. I colour it myself.
My car is 9 years old.

I am paying PTSB an SVR of 5.19% on my mortgage which is crippling me because my mortgage is over €400 PER MONTH more expensive than someone with the same amount of home loan with AIB.
I pay nearly €800 per month to have my child minded while I go out to earn the average industrial wage.

Before you tar everyone with the same brush or try to get them to 'think' about the priority of their expenses did you not think that in these challenging times they might have already given a LOT of thought to each expense they incur and about the fact that this new expense might be the straw that broke the camel's back!

 

[swauna78]

And all the people in your local town only use local roads. They never travel anywhere else? Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.

No, that was only one small example of how us people who are 'privileged' according to some do not enjoy the same level of services as others. That is all.
Look, the LA budgets were slashed by over €100 million by central govt. this year. Now, they are looking to plug that gap which I totally understand.

However, I also understand when there is simply no more money left in the pot! That's it. Simple really.

Why don't they redesign the whole motor taxation farce and include refuse and other such things in an overall property taxation? That would be fairer in my opinion. And it would bring it into line with other countries.

 

[csirl]

Join the dots. Your being asked to pay a service charge. For the most part, this involves services provided by your local council (with some exceptions). Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere? - your local councils planning office. Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion? Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).


See my initial point above. Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.


Again, see above. It's not for the council to DO the developers job - but it IS for the council to enforce adherence to planning. Many will say, 'but the developers are long gone'. That may be - but the co.co. planners took a bond (or insurance against non-completion) right?

If you decide to pay this service charge, YOU - as a citizen - will be paying your service provider (your co.co.) - the very same service provider that is culpable in the hundreds of developments that are left in limbo. Not only that but they have been very happy to leave them in a state whereby they can turn around and say, 'there not finished so we can't take them in-charge'.

So...there needs to be a seismic shift in understanding that these authorities are expected to deliver tangible services with public money before they are given more of it! Monagt called it right earlier in this thread when he said it's akin to giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.
From a personal point of view, they must take my estate in-charge before I will pay that ruddy charge. I advise all others in the same situation (of which there are countless thousands) to take the same approach.

Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs.

Saying that you wont pay the Household Charge because your estate is unfinished is no different to someone who bought a dodgy car from a used car salesman refusing to pay motor tax. There is absolutely no moral justification for it other than the individual who has been conned taking out their anger on 'the authorities' rather than going after those who committed the wrong or taking responsibility for their own poor judgement in buying the house/car etc. from the dodgy salesmans/developer etc.

 

[truthseeker]

Data protection is not an issue this has been confirmed by Billy Hawkes our data commissioner.

Wonder how they plan on getting round EU directive 95 46 EC.
Clearly there is some issue as they wouldnt be threatening to knock on your door if they could just get the info they need from the ESB bill.

Tv license inspectors call - what' s new?

Considering this is supposedly about providing for under funded LAs, do you not think its a bit Irish to announce that these under funded LAs will have staff door knocking to remind people about the Household Charge?

Death by footpaths ?

You mustnt have heard the radio interview where Leo Varadkar told some woman that if she didnt pay up the footpaths wouldnt be repaired and would be dangerous.

Ask the Greeks

Id like to ask an individual Greek, just an ordinary joe public like me.

Criminal Not sure

Well according to Leo Varadkar people will be criminals. On Ireland AM yesterday morning they had a lady who wrote to him and he wrote back telling her she would be a criminal if she didnt pay.

By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own?

I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.

We all have our expense priorities. My car is 10 years old. How old is yours?


I don't expect you to answer the questions they are posed so that people can reflect on what their expense priorities are.

I can "afford" expenses because I forgoe other expenses.

We all have our priorities.



Marion

I dont even have a house Marion, I have a small apartment. I married since I bought it and if I wanted to have children Id be rightly up the creek now because there simply isnt room. Luckily I dont.

My apartment is worth less than 60% of its value than when I bought it, and I didnt buy at the height of the boom.

My car is 7 years old. There is only one car in the family.

Both my husband and I have been made redundant, going from combined salaries of over 100k a year to social welfare. My husband has recently, after almost 2 years, been able to find a full time job in his area of expertise, the salary is close to minimum wage. Before you suggest he should have retrained he is educated to masters level with 15 years experience at the top of his field which is specialised, it would be impossible for him to begin again and reach the same levels of education and experience without winning the lotto or turning back the clock.

Im in a similar position, highly specialised, huge amount of training and education to get to where I am. No real way to retrain unless I had the money for new degree and masters.

Dont talk to me about prioritising, its patronising.

You are lucky if you can afford another tax, I cant.

 

[truthseeker]

Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs.

So who should be taking responsibility for unfinished estates, places like Priory Hall etc? Its hardly the homeowners fault - are you insinuating that its peoples own fault that their estates are unfinished now?

 

[serotoninsid]

Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs.

Did you READ any of what I posted? The Planning Office are responsible for Planning consent and planning enforcement. They are the ones that hold the bond from the developer to ensure the development is completed. The Planning Office comes under the wing of the County Council.

Saying that you wont pay the Household Charge because your estate is unfinished is no different to someone who bought a dodgy car from a used car salesman refusing to pay motor tax.

Your totally and unequivocally wrong in what you say! (is this a troll?)

There is absolutely no moral justification for it other than the individual who has been conned taking out their anger on 'the authorities' rather than going after those who committed the wrong or taking responsibility for their own poor judgement in buying the house/car etc. from the dodgy salesmans/developer etc.

I didn't show 'poor judgement' as you put it (other than buying in the bubble - and in that, I made the same mistake as countless thousands). Despite the book valuation, I'm otherwise happy with the house itself.

And to answer your other point, there is EVERY justification in refusing to pay a service charge when the service provider (i.e. the county council) who will get that money won't even take our development in charge (despite it being their remit) and won't enforce completion (again, despite it being their remit by way of their Planning Office).

So who should be taking responsibility for unfinished estates, places like Priory Hall etc? Its hardly the homeowners fault - are you insinuating that its peoples own fault that their estates are unfinished now?

Thank you! Some sane rational reasoning in a world of 'crazy'!

 

[mcloving]

And all the people in your local town only use local roads. They never travel anywhere else? Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.

If you compare with UK for instance, most taxes come form London, yet all the country is looked after by government.
In Ireland its seems to be only dublin, especially the south that gets services.

Ireland is a very unfair country.

 

[Bronte]

Serotoninsid, what do you think of the 50% of people in your estate who don't pay for the grass cutting? I'd really like an honest answer to that.

In relation to your problem with the council. I think you should start a thread on that and see if it can be sorted rather than complaining about it and getting nowher. We had threads on here before and people did manage to get it sorted out, but it took a lot of work and stress and hassle.

It is very unclear to me what exactly is the issue. Your estate has not been finished properly by the builder, and the council may or may not have a bond to finish it, and they won't tell you if they do or don't have a bond. Is that it?

To anyone else who can pay and won't. Do you not realise that someone is going to have to sit down and say what can we not afford. They are actually going to have to make decisions on whether to close swimming pools or liabries or to buy enough salt in the winter. These hard decisions are on the horizon. In an ideal world we would have wonderful services. We are currently where we are and services are not great, but do you won't won't pay really want to be like Greece. Do you not see what is already happening today in Limerick hospital A&E not able to cope (just one example).

If people are going to protest, and I think they should, then do it on the treaty changes. Then object to bank bailouts, to lack of reform, but in the mean time we should be writing a list of all the things that are wrong with the running of the country, and sending it to the politicians.