I am not paying the Household Charge because...

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The reason i am not paying is that my local authority could not manage a waterfight.
They have wasted millions over the years, a good example being when they decided to eject a construction company from the eyre square job (Galway), they got legal advice at every stage to say they were wrong in doing that, but their arrogance meant that they appealled it all teh way and ended up paying €1.5m in legal costs, as well as the additional cost of getting the work done and loss of profit to the company they threw out. Thats a lot of €100 charges. Muppets.
 
To a certain extent everyone on this thread is right. But Firefly hits the spot with the point that local authorities will do little until they face consequences.

It's good to hear that the lazy,spoilt Greek civil servants are now waking up because they are seeing jobs and wages cut. That's great. Back in zombie land here we've tens of thousands of useless pen pushers who believe that they'll earn good wages and pensions for ever.

Whenever a council officIal talks about the need for this property tax they mention the fire service or other vital services - just like the civil service unions who bleat on about the front line services.

We know that we need essential services. It's insulting for them to go on about them as if this is where all our taxes ansd charges are going.
We know full well that there is a vast middle section of civil servants ,including local authority workers, who do very little productive work and barely respond to the needs of the people they supposedly serve..

My shame is that I've paid all my taxes, charges,fees . I'm an old middleclass guy who cowardly does everything "properly". But I can't blame those who are taking a stand and refusing to pay.
However, as Bronte points out, just not paying is not the answer -or,at least,the only answer. More active action, preferably legal, is required of those who are angry enough not to pay.
And ,I suppose, more active action from lazy cowards like me.
 
The other approach that you could consider is that by explicitely paying a service charge you should be in a stronger position to argue that the LA take over your estate.
It's another approach firefly - no doubt. However, call me a cynic but given our experience in this instance - and the manner in which public sector bodies are run (and this has NOT changed in any meaningful way despite these times of 'austerity' and crisis), I think we would find ourselves in very much a weaker position rather than stronger as a direct consequence.

You mentioned you have engaged the services of a solicitor...perhaps something to ask him/her about...
No - never mentioned that. From the little I know, going down a direct legal route is not a decision to be taken lightly. Just being right isn't enough - these things can clock up quite a lot of billing hours and are not likely to get resolved any faster.

Firefly said:
Quote:Originally Posted by Bronte
On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have.
If this were a reality here I have no doubt that things would improve, but sadly it's not. Until the local authorities face consequences things won't change. In fact, if they get money from this new tax from people voluntarliy* then there is little incentive for them to cut costs/improve services.
roytheboyo said:
The reason i am not paying is that my local authority could not manage a waterfight.
oldnick said:
Back in zombie land here we've tens of thousands of useless pen pushers who believe that they'll earn good wages and pensions for ever.
Anyone see a theme forming here? i.e. the shameless mismanagement of public money. Everyone knows it - it's no secret. This is where the heavy lifting needs to be done. I know it really is heavy lifting - but that's what this government need to tackle. Maybe we might actually find that we don't have a shortfall/deficit in national spending if this was tackled? And thereafter, maybe people would be far more inclined to pay a service charge...
 
You see how hopping mad you are at those who don't pay in your estate, well I feel like that about you.
I knew that was where you were heading. However, I beg to differ on your rationale here given my account of my situation. As previously stated, I am in favour - in principal - of a property tax. Notwithdstanding that, how could it be reasonable to expect me (and there are thousands of others in exactly the same situation in respect of their own estates)to pay an alleged service provider who has treated me with utter contempt and failed miserably to provide the most basic, fundamental service i.e. taking my estate in-charge.
Yes you are right to be annoyed at the council, but they are not a somebody, they don't have feelings and don't care if you pay or not.
I'm not sure where your going with that? This is not personal - but it is situational and the points I raised stand. As regards them not caring whether we pay or not, you think it doesn't mean anything if 70% don't pay? At a more local level, you think that it doesn't mean anything when we have made it clear to our local representative that we don't intend to pay?

You are biting off your nose to spit your fact by not paying the charge, no matter what you do you will eventually have to pay it and heftly, you and the others in your estate should be sure that you are aware of the implications.
Ah yes, instilling fear is a great motivator! We had that with the 2nd democratic referendum - you know the one..where the people said 'no' so the democratic thing to do was vote again.
We shouldn't have been put in this position - but here we are. Is there any point at which you would have the fortitude to take a stand - or would you simply accept anything that was decreed by our democratically elected peers?
The council

Yes they are incompetant and wasteful, all over the country. They don't reply to your letters etc. Well how do you make them reply. Have you tried hiring a solicitor. Do they ignore your letters altogether? Have you tried meeting with them. Would bombarding them with letters work? What works with councils, does anyone know?
Ok, so you have identified that there is something fundamentally wrong with these public authorities - yet you will add more fuel to the fire by throwing more hard earned money at them? Again, I have to call on monagts analogy - it's akin to offering a free bar to an alcoholic.

If he files accounts, he's still in business, but does he have assets, is he a 'mark' would he go bust if pursued, is he liable for completing, does your contract with the builder have anything on that, these are questions you might want to ask the solicitor who did the purchase for you
This really doesn't matter. Either the developer finishes it or the council accesses the bond and does it. Where is the grey area? Where is the need for further discussion? It really IS that simple. But of course, this is all dependent upon what way the council would prefer this to play out....and we know exactly what that is.
Enforcement notice
What exactly is this. The council issues a document with this title to the builder telling him to complete the estate? And when he doesn't what is the next legal step and how do you get them to bring the builder to court. Presumably this document has some legal weight, does it have to be the council to bring the case, and how does one force them. More questions for your solicitor.
He was issued with a notice of non-compliance with one aspect of his planning consent. He ignored it. You talk about legal avenues - you must be worldly enough to know that this is a route that requires a lot of thought before taking such an option. We are a development of less than 30 dwellings - where just 50% are actively contributing to efforts with this. All in negative equity - and like the rest of society, dealing with their own financial woes to varying extents.

Residents forced to pay maintenance charges
Do you see the irony of the fact you wish it were the law that your neighbours pay these charges in your estate but you don't want to pay the household charge. I do agree with you though, I think there should be a mechanism to force everybody to pay up. It works on the continent.
No - I don't see the irony at all. See the first point I made at the beginning of this very post. They are NOT comparable. To refresh your memory, I AM in favour of a property tax in principal - and WILL pay this SERVICE charge the moment our estate is taken in charge by the SERVICE provider i.e. the Co.Co.
Local representative
What exactly is he doing to help? Does he bring it up at council meetings. Can you go to a higher level. Have you thought about writing letters to your local newspaper complaining about the council.
What is he doing? Well, when all is said and done - nothing tangible insofar as I can see. It was discussed on local radio as recently as last Sunday - not specifically regarding our estate - but again, this reinforces the point of just how many people are affected by this.
On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have.
I truly do see your viewpoint - as I think you now see mine - but I think it's a case that we nevertheless will have to agree to disagree as regards my stance on non-payment of the household charge.
 
Any chance of some examples of the services you're missing out on?

Amenities that decent societies have such as, street lights, paths, road markings, play ground, public transport, post office, public areas, parks
 
Household charge protestors should 'get a life' according to Alan Shatter!

from [broken link removed]:

The Justice Minister has said that people planning to protest against the household charge today should "get a life".

The deadline to pay the €100 tax takes affect at midnight tonight, after which penalty fees will apply.

So far, just over 528,000 of the 1.6 million homeowners who are liable for the charge, have actually paid it.

A demonstration will be staged outside the Fine Gael Ard Fheis at the Convention Centre in Dublin this afternoon, to oppose this tax.

Alan Shatter says people who don't pay the fee can be brought before the courts and fined for their non-compliance.

Minister Shatter also says a "mountain is being made out of a molehill" given that the tax is only €100:

"This is the lowest property charge you will find anywhere in Europe"

"...I think Sinn Fein and the promise protestors should just get a life'
 
In terms of the comparisons with Greece I would say that I too have friends there who tell me that a range of public services have been slashed with the Health Service in particular teetering on the brink of collapse - facts that the International media have confirmed.

It is apparent to my friends that vast numbers of the entire workforce are angry , disenchanted & morale is at rock bottom - a recipe for disaster & continuing industrial relations mayhem.

I would suggest that the current Government by sticking to the Croke Park Agreement are pursuing a better framework for stabilising PS finances.
 
Although i'm not paying this charge before tonights deadline,I feel that the cant pay wont pay brigade were wrong to picket the Council Offices in Dungloe today.What were they trying to achieve? To try and pressurise the staff who were asked to work? or the public who may want to pay?
Surely if they want to protest it should be to the local FG/Lab or even FF representatives
 
Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided
 
Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided



Paddy da Irishman always regarded himself as the Master of cute hoorism
and I doubt that will ever change, I've seen it going on over 6Oyrs.

And for the plebs at the bottom of society............

"Don't do as I do, do as I say"
 
I Ok, so you have identified that there is something fundamentally wrong with these public authorities - yet you will add more fuel to the fire by throwing more hard earned money at them? .

Do you not think spending some of your hard earned money on proper legal advice would be well worth it? You see the link to that other thread I posted up, there was a really great post by MOB who is a solicitor I believe, he no longer posts, but if I were you I'd be hiring him, he knows his stuff and has dealt with this area of the law. I'm sure an initial consulation would be free and then he will quote you a fee and what is wrong with that. How is that a waste of money.

Public authorities seem to sit up and take notice when they receive a solicitors letter. Maybe that's what you need to get the stick of dynamite under your council. Or at the very least you would find out if you are wasting your time.
 
Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided

Is this an April fools joke?
 
No Joke and Phil is upset at the exposure of his private biz

Seriously, I'm struggling to see how anyone can equate the two. He is in a commercial dispute, arising out of a private contractual arrangement.

There is AFAIK a property tax in Portugal, of c. 1% p.a. - now if he wasn't paying this I could understand the article, but apart from that it's just a load of twaddle really.
 
Make no mistake - If you just hand over the money without making the LA work for it, account for it and mind it as if its their own money - It will be pi33ed down a drain. They will come back year after year for more and more and you will get less and less for your money - because like benchmarking - you paid before you got it. Get the service - I will pay the charge..
 
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