How schools are letting our young children down

[delgirl]

Topical headline article in today's Independent:

"How schools are letting down our young children"

Science is losing out as twice as much time given to religion at primary level.

The OECD Report quoted states that our education system is lagging behind most developed countries in providing students with good scientific skills at primary level.

According to the OECD 'Education at a Glance' report, Irish primary school children spend only 4% of their class time on science, half the international average, while 10% of teaching time is spent on religion, second only to Israel and more than double the OECD average of 4%.

Is it time for religion, which is important in terms of its relevance to history and cultural significance, to be taught at home and in church and schools to be a place of learning which allows for open mindedness, not indoctrination?

 

[Liamos]

We already know your views on religion. Why are you opening a new thread on the subject?

 

[Protocol]

I agree that prep for Communion, Confirmation, should be done on evenings and weekends in church.

However, the issue (problem?) is that all primary schools are private institutions, mostly faith-based, and so they can argue that faith teaching should occur in the school.

Maybe the reason the % time spent on religion is lower in France or Germany, etc., is that they have a mixture of faith-based primary schools and State schools????

We have 3 state-owned schools out of 2500-3000.

 

[dereko1969]

We already know your views on religion. Why are you opening a new thread on the subject?

The other thread was about Paedophilia not the running of our education system.

In my view the State is in breach of its Constitutional obligation not to fund religions by funding religious run schools.

The State should take over the running of all schools that it pays for and allow those who want faith based education to pay the full costs of their education.

 

[orka]

We already know your views on religion. Why are you opening a new thread on the subject?

I am a fairly active reader of AAM and I don't know delgirl's views on religion (there are other users I would pick out as having conservative religious views) - maybe you are sensitive to the topic? I don't think there's any harm in a thread on religion in schools - it is not compulsory to participate.

I agree that it would be better to have religious instruction for willing participants outside of school hours. Many children end up in 'religious' schools because it's the local school and there isn't much alternative, they fall into the routine, make their communions, confirmations and don't see the inside of a church again until they get married (and even then because there isn't much alternative). The amount of time wasted on communion preparation is mad - from Christmas of 2nd class and 6th class, communion and confirmation preparations dominate class time.

 

[Seagull]

The article has this
"Department of Education rules require them to spend two-and-a-half hours a week on religion."
Is this correct, that it's DoE that sets this as a requirement, rather than being determined by the schools?

 

[Shawady]

There was a special report in the Times a few months ago about communions. It would appear that even some people in the church are fed up with the hyprocisy around it and would prefer for it to be taken out of schools are overseen by the parish itself.

 

[T McGibney]

The amount of time wasted on communion preparation is mad - from Christmas of 2nd class and 6th class, communion and confirmation preparations dominate class time.

My 2 children made their First Communion this year and this certainly wasn't the case in their school.

Any schools or teachers who, either through zealotry or disorganisation, allow communion/confirmation preparation to disrupt other areas of the class syllabus, should have questions to answer.

 

[dereko1969]

Surely any time spent on these activities is disruptive in a system where the State pays the full wages of the teachers?

 

[T McGibney]

Surely any time spent on these activities is disruptive in a system where the State pays the full wages of the teachers?

Note that the recent OECD 'Education at a Glance' report (the basis of the article quoted by the OP) confirmed that total Irish class hours exceed almost all other OECD countries. So if the class hours devoted to religious and spiritual education are ever scrapped, they may not necessarily be replaced by other subjects but instead reflected in less class hours overall.

 

[TarfHead]

It would appear that even some people in the church are fed up with the hyprocisy around it and would prefer for it to be taken out of schools are overseen by the parish itself.

+1

A friend of mine has 3 children in an Educate Together school; the youngest is to make his first Holy Communion next May. Their preparation for the sacrament was made in their own time, on Sunday mornings after Mass.

If more parents had to make a similar level of commitment to their children's faith, the excesses of first Holy Communions might be resolved.

 

[di74]

The article has this
"Department of Education rules require them to spend two-and-a-half hours a week on religion."
Is this correct, that it's DoE that sets this as a requirement, rather than being determined by the schools?

DES has suggested minimum weekly framework for primary schools. RE typically does get 2 1/2 hours per week whilst SESE (Science, History and Geography) gets 3 hours. As a teacher I have never spent that much time on RE.... also with the new guidelines on increasing the amount of time spent on Numeracy and Literacy much of this extra time has taken further from the RE timetable.

 

[The_Banker]

DES has suggested minimum weekly framework for primary schools. RE typically does get 2 1/2 hours per week whilst SESE (Science, History and Geography) gets 3 hours. As a teacher I have never spent that much time on RE.... also with the new guidelines on increasing the amount of time spent on Numeracy and Literacy much of this extra time has taken further from the RE timetable.

Hi di74,
I always wondered about primary school teachers teaching RE in schools. To teach it then I would think you would have to be trained up on it in various teacher colleges? So if the teacher isnt religious, how does that work?
As in, if a primary school teacher is a non believer how can he/she teach a subject that they dont believe in? This brings me to a further question... Can a Muslim or or someone of Jewish faith become a primary school teacher in Ireland, outside of an educate together school?

Obviously if you dont wish to answer, please ignore these questions

 

[Protocol]

Hi di74,
I always wondered about primary school teachers teaching RE in schools. To teach it then I would think you would have to be trained up on it in various teacher colleges? So if the teacher isnt religious, how does that work?

As far as I know, the B.Ed. training in St. Pat's Drumcondra or in Mary I in Limerick would include that.

I'm sure the teacher can separate their own personal feelings, from the curriculum.

 

[Protocol]

ain? This brings me to a further question... Can a Muslim or or someone of Jewish faith become a primary school teacher in Ireland, outside of an educate together school?

I think primary schools have a derogation from the discrimination laws, and are allowed to recruit based on faith. Which of course makes sense.


But Educate Together aren't happy about it:

[broken link removed]

 

[MrMan]

I am a fairly active reader of AAM and I don't know delgirl's views on religion (there are other users I would pick out as having conservative religious views) - maybe you are sensitive to the topic? I don't think there's any harm in a thread on religion in schools - it is not compulsory to participate.

I agree that it would be better to have religious instruction for willing participants outside of school hours. Many children end up in 'religious' schools because it's the local school and there isn't much alternative, they fall into the routine, make their communions, confirmations and don't see the inside of a church again until they get married (and even then because there isn't much alternative). The amount of time wasted on communion preparation is mad - from Christmas of 2nd class and 6th class, communion and confirmation preparations dominate class time.

I think Liamos was just refering to the most recent thread in which Delgirl had some views about what the church teaches, which may have been a little wide of the mark. You're right about threads on Religion in school being no harm, it is just that they tend to veer off pretty quickly into church bashing exercises that contain more emotion than fact.

Just one point about your own post, I don't understand the part about there not being much alternative for people getting married; surely if they have no interest in Religion then a church wouldn't even come into their thinking?

 

[truthseeker]

Just one point about your own post, I don't understand the part about there not being much alternative for people getting married; surely if they have no interest in Religion then a church wouldn't even come into their thinking?

In Ireland if you dont want a church wedding, you are restricted by the HSE's rules on a civil ceremony, which include things like having to be indoors, having to have a seperate room available for the registrar, only being allowed to get married between 9-5, mon-fri etc...
There is only one non HSE registrar (a humanist) who will do things a bit differently, but obviously, he is fairly booked up. (I should say, at the time, things might have changed in the last 3 years)

I investigated it for my own marriage, found it too restrictive, and eloped to marry in a different country instead.

 

[The_Banker]

As far as I know, the B.Ed. training in St. Pat's Drumcondra or in Mary I in Limerick would include that.

I'm sure the teacher can separate their own personal feelings, from the curriculum.

Arent St Pats and Mary I run (or at least owned by Religious Institutions?

Are there any state run training colleges for primary school teachers? Where there is no religious training for teachers?

 

[The_Banker]

I think primary schools have a derogation from the discrimination laws, and are allowed to recruit based on faith. Which of course makes sense.


But Educate Together aren't happy about it:

[broken link removed]

Whether there is a derogation there or not is wrong... Surely.

It might make sense but it is still wrong.

 

[truthseeker]

Whether there is a derogation there or not is wrong... Surely.

It might make sense but it is still wrong.

I agree, it is wrong.