How is Switzerland handling the credit crunch?

[Bronte]

It was 1971- in the canton of Alpensell. The (stupid) reason Ive explained in my above post. I should also add that most of Switzerland regard the Alpensell as behind the times. It wasnt something they were proud of.

Oh it was way back in 1971 well that's all right then.

 

[casiopea]

Oh it was way back in 1971 well that's all right then.

Just to be clear I dont think it was ok it was only introduced in 1971, neither do most SwissIts one small village in the Appenzell for one very stupid reason - wanting to maintain the "show of hands" system in the village square. It is an example of how the Gemeinde/Canton/Country way of working can be difficult. However its not reasonable to form an opinion on the swiss voting structure based on that one village - its not indicative of the rest of the country.

 

[darag]

Oh it was way back in 1971 well that's all right then.

Nothing to be proud of for sure. The reason I mentioned it up was to demonstrate how autonomous the cantons are in Switzerland were. The same thing (very late female suffrage) happened in the other mini-countries around Europe like Andorra and Liechtenstein.

Regarding Purples latest broadsides, anyone with an interest can google Mobuto or Abacha and "Switzerland" and you find a wealth of information which completely contradicts the picture painted by Purple. The Swiss authorities reacted very quickly to freeze all Mobuto's assets and they've remained frozen; Swiss law requires that the Congolese government apply for the funds but Mobuto's clan is still a very powerful (one of Mobuto's sons is a senior minister) and they have blocked the recovery of the money to Congolese government. In the Abacha court case you fail to mention that the court case involves the Swiss authorities fighting a legal challenge of the Abacha family who are trying to reverse the confiscation of their ill-gotten gains or that the Swiss pursued the extradition of Abacha's son from Germany to face charges of money-laundering and fraud. Perhaps not the best way to advertise the country as a handy spot for dictators to leave their loot? Or, to put the affair into context, did you mention that the vast majority of the Abacha loot ended up in British banks and only a small fraction went to Switzerland and Luxembourg? Do you consider everyone in the UK to be morally repulsive as a result? To be fair the Swiss authorities investigating the banks involved were highly critical of a small number of banks (as were the equivalent in the UK).

 

[darag]

I should say also that the reason Switzerland crops up more often in these cases is simply because it has one of the biggest private banking sectors in the world and so there is a higher than likely chance of the movement of ill-gotten funds could involve their banks. However the Swiss are very proactive in enforcing their banking rules and protecting the reputation of their banking sector as it represents more than a tenth of their economy. They actively work to ensure the provenance of the money and are very quick to freeze funds if there's any sort of dodgy whiff about it. At the same time, as a western liberal democracy, they have to offer full access to an independent judiciary thus they end up fighting court cases taken by dictators' families and whatnot trying to recover their ill-gotten gains. Of course individual banks have been reprimanded by the Swiss authorities for their cavalier attitude to dodgy money but there certainly isn't even implicit official support for banks to accept such funds - the opposite in fact. Believe it or not, having dictators and terrorists use your services does not make for great PR when trying to attract wealthy private banking customers.

 

[Bronte]

However its not reasonable to form an opinion on the swiss voting structure based on that one village - its not indicative of the rest of the country.

I would not judge Switzerland on one single item, it's just a sign of a deeper malaise. I judge Switzerland on it's actions in relation to the aiding and abetting of war and war criminals. I don't remember who said it but we must bear witness and never forget.

Incidentally I live in a country built on the rape and pillage of other countries. But we don't talk about that here.

 

[casiopea]

I would not judge Switzerland on one single item, it's just a sign of a deeper malaise. I judge Switzerland on it's actions in relation to the aiding and abetting of war and war criminals. I don't remember who said it but we must bear witness and never forget.

I agree with the quote wholeheartedly, it applies to us all - not just the Swiss. I dont agree with the generalized sweeping accusations though and I think some of them have been fairly well addressed in this thread - especially Darag^s last posts.

 

[darag]

I would not judge Switzerland on one single item, it's just a sign of a deeper malaise. I judge Switzerland on it's actions in relation to the aiding and abetting of war and war criminals. I don't remember who said it but we must bear witness and never forget.

Could you be more specific about example of the Swiss government aiding and abetting war criminals? I mean really, that's a very serious charge to level at any western country.

Please provide specific examples and if you are going to mention a particular dictator please provide a link which supports your claims regarding the Swiss behaviour as the Mobuto and Abacha cases, if anything, show the Swiss acting completely fairly.

This argument reminds me of having to respond to an American who was convinced that it was "common knowledge" that the Irish government had been waging a proxy terrorist war with the Brits using the IRA. I found it pretty offensive that a seemingly well-educated person was happy to claim that a normal western liberal democracy would support terrorism at the state level. Similarly I find these accusations against the Swiss to be offensive also particularly as up to now at least, this thread has yet to contain a single specific example which stands up to any scrutiny.

It is no more offensive to refer to Irish as drunken stupid violent pedophiles than it is to suggest the Swiss support and finance genocide and terrorism. The bar of evidence to convince yourself that the entire population of a country shares a set of very negative character attributes should be very very high. And the evidence against the Swiss here has been very very flimsy. Without getting hysterical about it, I'm disturbed by the readiness of people here to believe complete lies about a particular nationality and to repeat innuendo unquestioningly as I would be if a similar attitude were displayed towards any group, ethnic or religious, for example.

 

[Purple]

Could you be more specific about example of the Swiss government aiding and abetting war criminals? I mean really, that's a very serious charge to level at any western country.

The Swiss tradition of secrecy and silence is all that is required to facilitate the flow of stolen/looted/blood money into its banks. When was the last time that a Swiss Bank refused a deposit from an African leader? When was the last time they froze an account without massive pressure from another government (the Nigerians were asking for years and got nowhere ‘till the Americans jumped in)? I know they froze about a hundred and fifty million dollars this year in bribe money from Haliburton but that was only after the Americans (again) tipped them off.

Passive inaction and shoulder shrugging does not satisfy the moral burden on a Western democracy to do its part in stopping the economic rape of the poorest and most needy people in the world.
Describing repatriated loot at “foreign aid” is also one of the tricks played by the Swiss (and others). The Swiss are not alone in the reprehensible and illegal flow of capital from Africa but they are at the top of the pile and they, by making a virtue of their banking secrecy laws, make a virtue of their banks actions.

 

[Purple]

This argument reminds me of having to respond to an American who was convinced that it was "common knowledge" that the Irish government had been waging a proxy terrorist war with the Brits using the IRA.

To me the analogy that fits is the Catholic bishops who knew that there were strong cases of sexual abuse being made against priests but stymied attempts to get at the truth ‘till they were forced by outside forces to do so.

 

[darag]

My analogy was to point out how offensive unfounded slurs against an entire nation, ethnic group or religious group is. Your "there's no smoke without fire" idea completely misses the point.

You're still being evasive and disingenuous - the two examples you gave of dictators using Swiss banking facilities turned out to be good examples of how well the Swiss regulator works to freeze dirty money and how seriously they pursue offenders. You now claim - again without a single piece of credible evidence that "The Swiss tradition of secrecy and silence is all that is required to facilitate the flow of stolen/looted/blood money into its banks.". This is just innuendo; would you care to back it up with some references to cases?

Repeating false claims does not make them true and without references it just sounds like a conspiracy theory - regurgitated half facts gleaned from fictional works, no credible sources to back up the claims, built on a preposterous and ludicrous idea - that the western world would tolerate a country in it's midst financing/supporting terrorism and genocide (you realise why Iran, Libya and the like are/were pariahs?) and constantly evading simple counter arguments and facts.

You've confused the real diplomatic pressure from the US, the French and - most shrilly - from the Germans to provide databases of bank customers in order to fish for tax evaders with crackpot internet conspiracy theories about evil Swiss bankers financing wars, genocide and terrorism (in a way that reminds me of the 19th century anti-semitism directed against the Rothschilds and other Jewish bankers).

You confuse privacy with anonymity; the Swiss banking system DOES NOT offer anonymity - you need to establish without a doubt your credentials to open an account there - but does require the equivalent of a judge's warrant before details/a statement of the account can be released to a third party.

I've asked you over and over for references - links to internationally credible media sources - for your claims but you've yet to provide any.

 

[Bronte]

. You now claim - again without a single piece of credible evidence that "The Swiss tradition of secrecy and silence is all that is required to facilitate the flow of stolen/looted/blood money into its banks.". This is just innuendo; would you care to back it up with some references to cases?.

I wonder why the Swiss banks were shredding documents in the last 10 years then? Nothing to hide, nope, definitely not. No culture of secrecy and silence etc.

You want one single case of aiding and abetting war criminals. Well how about taking the money Nazi's (war criminals) derived from Jews (art/jewels/gold, including from teeth) which went to fund a war.

I wouldn't only attack Switzerland. I have no beef with the Swiss. Lots of nations have shameful pasts. Some of the victors in World War 2 were worse than anything the Nazi's did (Russia). Some of the victors are little more than war criminals today (Cheney/Bush)

I think this topic is getting a little too heated.

 

[darag]

I wonder why the Swiss banks were shredding documents in the last 10 years then? Nothing to hide, nope, definitely not. No culture of secrecy and silence etc.

You want one single case of aiding and abetting war criminals. Well how about taking the money Nazi's (war criminals) derived from Jews (art/jewels/gold, including from teeth) which went to fund a war.

More completely fantastic innuendo. So as well as continuing to finance terrorism and genocide (Purple), we have another remarkable claim - that the Swiss helped "to fund the Nazi war machine using Jew's gold teeth". This is complete crackpot theory territory. It's a "story" so preposterous, I have no idea what kind of world view you'd have to have to consider it plausible.

I notice, like Purple, you are refusing to back up your claims with any references (i.e. links to respected media sources or an encyclopedia). The discussion is getting a bit heated simply because I'm being forced to deal with regurgitated "facts" heard in the pub, bits of spy movie plots or internet conspiracy theories. I've asked repeatedly just for a single link to a reputably source which might support any one of these crackpot ideas so that at least, we could debate the role - which is not by any means blameless - of the Swiss banks and banking secrecy on the basis of facts, not comic book plot lines.

If you actually want to know something about the Swiss banks' role in WW2, the definitive report was completed just a couple of years ago by the US based Volcker commission - led by ex-US Fed chairman and with a strong representation from various Jewish groups. The investigation was the biggest ever - the report itself cost nearly quarter of billion euro (paid for by the Swiss) to prepare because of the amount of detailed work involved. If you google it you will find plenty of summaries. I had started writing a summary of its' findings but I'm not sure there's any point but I'll will say, surprise surprise, the report doesn't support your claim; it's a serious report based on facts an investigation so your fantastic claim of "funding the Nazi war machine using Jew's gold teeth" or Purples claim of continuing support of genocide are not even mentioned; these ideas and claims have simply no credibility even amongst the most hardened anti-Swiss groups.

I mean do you realise how daft such an idea sounds? I presume you'd have a fair idea of the amount of gold in a tooth? Yet you gullible to believe that sufficient quantities were processed in Switzerland to prolong the war? You really believe that the allies would have nodded indulgently at such actions? The Americans wanted to invaded Ireland for not handing over the treaty ports - can you imagine the reaction if they thought neutral Switzerland was funding the German war effort? Or that the Swiss banks fund genocide and terrorism? This is the real world not some Freddy Forsyth novel; you really believe this would be tolerated in the western world? I mean really - have a bit of cop-on; this is simply bonkers.

I wouldn't only attack Switzerland. I have no beef with the Swiss. Lots of nations have shameful pasts. Some of the victors in World War 2 were worse than anything the Nazi's did (Russia). Some of the victors are little more than war criminals today (Cheney/Bush)

Well at least this is an advance on Purple's stance where Switzerland alone is singled out for criticism.

I think this topic is getting a little too heated.

The heat is coming from me; I am getting frustrated with having to respond to innuendo. I'm frustrated because I've provided references to factual articles on the subject while Purple and you are happy to repeat preposterous unfounded claims.

I have Swiss friends and know the country somewhat. I am in the process of moving there. This sort of innuendo about the place is offensive. If I were to visit a Swiss internet forum, for example, and saw a bunch of people claiming that Ireland was a state sponsor of terrorism and pedophilia quoting facts "gleaned" from a Harrison Ford movie, I'd be highly insulted and would respond appropriately. This is the same.

 

[Bronte]

Well pray tell why if there is no worth to gold in teeth did the Nazi's take it or is that a fabrication too?

You have not said anything about the banks shredding documents, a made up story too? Shredded documents tell no truths or lies and no enquiry can ascertain what was in them.

You think the allies are great? For example the British Empire and Russia, there is no limit to what they were capable of, and Russia today.

I never said the Swiss funded the war.

I don't know exactly what the Swiss did but they certainly weren't nice and it's not always the person who pulls the trigger who is at fault. Nice people and dictators and murders and criminals need accountants, lawyers, banks and 'friendly' countries.

 

[Bronte]

Ireland was a state sponsor of Paedophila and child abuse and neglect in allowing certain institutions to run torture homes with no state interference and no checks on those that ran such places which produced seriously messed up individuals.

You know Frank McCourt's stories about the slums of Limerick were a complete fabrication. I'm sure there's a report on that somewhere, probably to be located in the archives with the completely blacked out report on the Dunne case last week.

Is that wild and fantastic enough for you Darag.

 

[Purple]

Remember what the French parliament said about them a few years back?
Here's what you get if you search the BBC news site using the words "Swiss + Banking".

Any changes in the Swiss banking system have been made post 9/11 and then only because they were defecating themselves about what the Americans would do if they didn't.

Darag, there is little point in continuing to discuss this with you as you have decided that the Swiss banking system is whiter than white and they are in fact leading the world on ethical best practice. In fact they did nothing wrong during the Second World War either, isn't that right?
While they continue to provide a veil of secrecy that facilitates, well they hear no evil and see no evil so therefore there must be no evil, right?... yes, we should all take their word for it that everything is fine, sure money doesn’t corrupt, does it?

 

[casiopea]

Well pray tell why if there is no worth to gold in teeth did the Nazi's take it or is that a fabrication too?

Bronte, you are going off topic here. We arent debating the Nazis. Nobody disputes what the Nazis did and whether it was repugnant or not. There is a phrase/name out there for when debates start going down the WW2 route (it basically means the debate becomes moot). Ive forgotten it - but its been quoted here before - maybe someone can help. This debate is unfortunately going that way.

In the context of Switzerland being "nice" and "friendly" to dictators. Remember during WW2 Switzerland was a country (its smaller in size than Ireland) completely surrounded by Facists nations. Switzerland's neighbours Germany, Austria, France and Italy have always been it's most important trade partners. During World War II Switzerland was completely surrounded by Germany (including Austria from 1938 to 1945), it's ally Italy and by France (partly occupied by German troops from Summer 1940, partly controlled by the Vichy-based regime collaborating with Germany after the french surrender in 1940). Any Swiss import or export to other trade partners was under German control. Switzerland had to choose between keeping up it's trade and financial relations with it's neighbours on a normal pre-war level OR complete surrender and collaboration. There was absolutely no chance for a third way - it wasnt a case of being "nice". Switzerland, unlike Austria, chose as much independence as possible for a small country under the conditions dictated by the great powers. Does this make it right (what they did? ) no of course not. But remember the average Swiss person was growing potatoes in their backgarden trying to grow enough food to survive (like everyone in wartime). That was the reality of the time.

Also and very importantly, maybe I am misunderstanding you (please correct me if I am), but how can you hold this generation of any nation resonable for the acts of their (great)-grandfathers? Mistakes shouldnt be forgotten, but you cant point the finger and say "you are guilty of genocide" to someone who wasnt even alive at the time - to someone who wasnt alive 50 years after the time? I dont blame you for your Grandfathers mistakes - why are you blaming the Swiss for theirs?

Darag, there is little point in continuing to discuss this with you as you have decided that the Swiss banking system is whiter than white

Darag made it clear in his previous post that he does not regard the swiss banks as blameless. I too do not think Swiss banks are blameless - their behaviour is clearly documented out there. There is continous pressure from both outside and within Switzerland itself to rectify these mistakes - from the 1946 Washington Agreement to the 1995 release of dormant accounts - this is also clearly documented. There has had to be a line drawn however between pointing a finger at Swiss Banks and labelling the entire nation as "morally repugnant". Given that my daughter and husband are Swiss I cant really debate this without taking it personally and getting hurt and that doesnt help any debate so at this point Im politely withdrawing.

 

[Bronte]

I dont blame you for your Grandfathers mistakes - why are you blaming the Swiss for theirs?



.

We don't have to go back to the past, they were shredding documents in the last 10 years and it is only in the last while that they are giving the pretence of cleaning things up. The truth is that today if I were a dictator or mega criminal the first place I'd go to put my money is Switzerland. Do you believe this or not?

In times of war it is true that people have to make hard decisions. The Swiss chose to take Jewish money BUT they later chose not return it to it's rightful owners. Right up to the recent past when such pressure was brought to bear by the Americans. Why is that? They chose to let trade (steel/coal I think) go through their country. They chose to let money be laundered in their country. If I was Swiss and I had to make the decisions they did I have no idea what I would decide. Nobody is whiter than white. Humans throughout history have to choose one side or the other and make hard choices.

None of this doesn't mean the Switzerland isn't a great place to live. It's really clean, beautiful, healthy and green. They have a fantastic social and health system. The people are very nice. They have forward thinking on social problems. They have a savings and being careful mentality. When they really clean up their banking they will have progressed even further.

 

[casiopea]

The truth is that today if I were a dictator or mega criminal the first place I'd go to put my money is Switzerland. Do you believe this or not?

No. Please read myth 6.

I have a swiss bank account - I know whats involved opening one up - its not trivial. Please provide a link or some reference to support your "truth" above there, that statement you made is the stuff of conspiracy theories.

 

[Bronte]

There are no anonymous accounts in Switzerland. A numbered account is an account that is identified solely by a number, rather than a name, in order to preserve the strictest confidentiality possible during teller transactions or bank transfers. Only the bank manager and a few select people know the identity of numbered account holders.

This is from your own post. I think it says it all really. In any case dictators don't just pop into the bank and say 'I'm a dictator will you take this money looted from my country' now do they. They send their respectable suited acccountant instead. Their money men. But that's just an urban legend too.

 

[casiopea]

There are no anonymous accounts in Switzerland. A numbered account is an account that is identified solely by a number, rather than a name, in order to preserve the strictest confidentiality possible during teller transactions or bank transfers. Only the bank manager and a few select people know the identity of numbered account holders.

This is from your own post. I think it says it all really. In any case dictators don't just pop into the bank and say 'I'm a dictator will you take this money looted from my country' now do they. They send their respectable suited acccountant instead. Their money men. But that's just an urban legend too.

???
I really dont understand what you are on about Bronte. You have totally lost me and you have repeatedly failed to provide any sort of supporting material to any of the wild wild accusations you are making.