House extends onto neighbours land & water from out roof pouring onto theirs.

W

WGT

Registered User
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193
Hi,
We moved into our house about 6 years ago. Got the house OK'd via the usual channels i.e. Solicitor/Surveyor etc.

However, in the last week, our neighbour has brought it to our attention, that our house extension (which was work carried out by the previous owner of our house), extends about a foot and a half over the boundary into their property.

There is another related issue, whereby when it rains, water pours down from our eaveshoot down onto their kitchen roof. The said that their assessors said that we would liable for any flooding if it happened as our house is too far over their boundary.

I assume that if all this is true, we should have a case with our surveyor who OK'd the house back in 2005. Should they not have picked up on this?

Clearly we would not have bought the house if this had been highlighted to us.

Can you let me know your thoughts?
WGT
 
Moved from self-builds and extensions to buying house as this is where this type of question is handled on AAM.

If its true the solicitor and surveyor should have picked up on it. However it may not be true! Perhaps your neighbour is just trying it on?
 
Thanks ajapale,
I'm going to contact the solicitor on Monday. Can't find the surveyor in my documentation about the purchase of the house. I guess the solicitor should know who it was. If the surveyor was no longer in business, where would we stand then. I assume there's some consumer law to protect a home buyer for this scenario.
 
WGT said:
Hi,
We moved into our house about 6 years ago. Got the house OK'd via the usual channels i.e. Solicitor/Surveyor etc.

However, in the last week, our neighbour has brought it to our attention, that our house extension (which was work carried out by the previous owner of our house), extends about a foot and a half over the boundary into their property.

There is another related issue, whereby when it rains, water pours down from our eaveshoot down onto their kitchen roof. The said that their assessors said that we would liable for any flooding if it happened as our house is too far over their boundary.

I assume that if all this is true, we should have a case with our surveyor who OK'd the house back in 2005. Should they not have picked up on this?

Clearly we would not have bought the house if this had been highlighted to us.

Can you let me know your thoughts?
WGT
Click to expand...

Three questions.

If this is in fact the case, is there some reason the alleged trespass wasn't clear to you from wandering around the property and looking at it yourselves?

Why would water discharging onto a roof cause a flood.

What is an eaveshoot?

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Hi Onq,
Thanks for your reply. The answers to your questions are below in red.

Three questions.

If this is in fact the case, is there some reason the alleged trespass wasn't clear to you from wandering around the property and looking at it yourselves?
No it wasn't clear. Actually myself and the neighbour agreed it wasn't obvious. We've lived in our house 6 years and didn't notice it. I think the main point is that the surveyor should have spotted that the square footage didn't tally with the official house map which he should have had at his disposal. I would have thought this is their bread and butter. Why else would a house buyer engage with them?

Why would water discharging onto a roof cause a flood.
Good point. I'll discuss this with the neighbour.

What is an eaveshoot?
Perhaps I'm calling this by the wrong name. It's the gulley or gutter above on the roof where water collects when it rains.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
Click to expand...
 
Okay, thanks for the clarifications

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Regarding the surveyor.

If the trespass wasn't obvious, then it might simply have escaped the surveyor's notice.

Most general surveyors focus on the condition of the building as opposed to the planning history or extensions.
Structural surveys address major structural defects like settlement, drainage and defects in bearing members/collapses.

Damp specialists advise on instances of mould and fungus and damp penetration, water ingress and condensation.
Asbestos specialists advise on the identification removal and carrying away of asbestos products.

Having said that, the first thing a good surveyor should do is check the alignment of extensions.
This includes those of the property in sale and adjoining properties.

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Regarding the solicitor.

If there was no legal action taken at the time there would be no court record.
If there was a dispute between the parties the previous owner' solicitor is where you start.

If the matter was not divulged under Requisitions in Title your solicitor would not know about it.
If the vendor's solicitor did know and didn't reveal the issue he may have conveyed bad title knowingly.

There is usually a general question asking the vendor's solicitor if there is anything that could affect the sale - eg ROW's, defective title, etc.
In one case in which I gave evidence, suing the vendors solicitor was the only redress available to a claimant where the vendor's solicitor had failed to disclose faulty title.

However time may be against you - see below.

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The Statute of Limitations is 6 years.

The neighbour seems to have allowed this trespass to occur and apparently consented to it for over six years without raising the matter with you.
While there may be an issue in title for you to address should you come to sell, there may be a limitation against any action.

While the detail of the trespass may not have been obvious, the fact of the extension was visible since construction.
It therefore seems unlikely the neighbour is only coming to an awareness of the alleged trespass now.

In another property dispute, a deed of rectification dealt with the minor trespass.


------------------------------

Consensual dealing could be the best way to resolve this matter IMO.

Hope this helps.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
I think that for land issues - such as "adverse possesion" (sometimes called squatters rights, which isn't a legal term) which may be the case here - the limit is 12 years.
 
WGT, what is your neighbour actually looking for now at this stage?

If you've been there six years and you've had amicable relations what are they hoping to 'sort' now?

Perhaps they are looking for planning on their own side of the fence and maybe when they got their plot measured up for the purposes of planning that it was only then that it came to light.

'Tisn't as if you can shave off a foot and a half off your building and give them the ground back.
 
Two other issues

Were you able to get around the Statute of Limitations - for example on grounds alleging fraud

(i) its possible that you could run up against the De minimis rule - the Law does not concern itself with trifles.

(ii) alternatively the matter might be addressed partly with reference to The Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009, Chapter Three.

At this point I have to direct you to a competent solicitor who will advise you.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Thanks for your reply PaddyBloggit, see answers below in red.

WGT, what is your neighbour actually looking for now at this stage?
He says that when it rains heavily, excess water from our roof gulley floods down onto his kitchen roof. He said his assessors said that we would be liable because our property extends across the boundary. I know he's had a leak before as a result of the previous owner of our house employing painters who broke tiles by putting ladders on his extension which is between the 2 houses. This is the real reason for the leaks, I wouldn't have thought that water falling down on a neighbour's roof is an issue all other thing being equal.

If you've been there six years and you've had amicable relations what are they hoping to 'sort' now?
I was speaking to him and we both agreed that if our house is trespassing 18 inches onto his property. Then the previous owner either shouldn't or shouldn't have been allowed to sell the house to us. In which case the solicitor or surveyor are culpable, or at least that would make most sense as they are employed by the buyer to ensure due process.
Perhaps they are looking for planning on their own side of the fence and maybe when they got their plot measured up for the purposes of planning that it was only then that it came to light.
The neighbour mentioned the fact that because of the trespass, he couldn't extend his house upwards. However, I feel that he wouldn't get planning permissions anyway, because that would then mean 3 houses in a row being attached. This would change our semi-detached into a terraced house. I think I'm right in saying that this would disqualify him from planning permission.
'Tisn't as if you can shave off a foot and a half off your building and give them the ground back.
Absolutely.
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I think your neighbour may be in for a surprise.

18 inches is 450mm which is a block length or two full brick lengths.

This is not a minor trespass of 1 or 2 iches nor is it too small to be noticed on a cleared, straight boundary.

As I stated in post #6 above -

The neighbour seems to have allowed this trespass to occur and apparently consented to it for over six years without raising the matter with you.
Click to expand...
The law requires the plaintiff to act to minimize his loss - it appears that your neighbour has not done this.

I think you need to minute what you've said to your neighbour up to this and vice versa and take competent legal advice.
It seems a very strange game is being played here for no obvious reason.

At the very least I would contact the previous owner and ask him was a deal done to facilitate the alleged trespass or offer recompense in any way.
If not and the trespass is proved - alignment alone doesn't prove there is a trespass - then a deed of rectification will be required before you can sell on.



ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Rang solicitor about alleged trespass

Thanks all for your responses to date,
Rang the solicitor yesterday we used to purchase the house.
Just told her that the neighbour alleges that there is a trespass of about 18 inches.
Initially I asked her, if we assume that there is a trespass, who should have brought it to our attention prior to the purchase 6 years ago. I would have thought it should have been our solicitors or the our surveyor. Surprisingly, she said it was up to us to specifically ask for a surveyor to check to ensure there was no trespass. I don't believe that, I think a house buyer hires a solicitor to ensure that the house being purchased is above board and legitimate. Why else would a house buyer employ a solicitor?
In any case, surely the bank wouldn't release the money based on the house buyer and their surveyor's approval. They only release the money if the solicitor gives the thumbs up. (Is this not a reasonable assumption?)
Anyway, she also said, that she had an up to date map, and that she could see no evidence of a trespass. However, she said that these maps are only drawn to a certain scale, and that an engineer visiting the house might be able to make a better judgement in terms of a possible trespass.
She said it was up to us to get an engineer to do this.
I find it hard to believe that a solicitor would use a map (which is not 100% telling the full story) and if the map wasn't sufficient, surely they should demand an engineer's report before giving approval that the house is legitimate.

Going forward, I'm just going to give our neighbour our solicitor's number and let them sort it. Either way, I don't think it's our issue to resolve.
 
How precise are plot maps such as those lodged with Land Registry/Registry of Deeds or (if different) exchanged during a property transaction? I know that when I was buying my house in the mid 90s the only map I saw had the site outlined by a line so thick that if scaled up to full scale would have been several meters thick thus making the precise boundary of the site difficult to ascertain. To this day I'm still not sure what the boundary is even if it's of only academic interest at the moment.
 
While I'm no legal expert, I don't really see how it's your (or any other) solicitor's fault

I don't see how the solicitor can find something that hasn't previously been raised in the courts or other legal avenue

It's not up to the solicitor to get a survey done etc etc, it's up to the potential buyers
 
18 inches is not a minor trespass on a normal circa 30M X 9M house site.
It should have been visible to the surveyor and he should have commented on it.
Most surveyors reports will comment on extensions to the subject or adjoining house.
But where an overgrown boundary obscured sight lines or made access difficult, it might have been hard to spot.
Also where the boundary had an irregular shape it might not have been easy to determine the legal boundary by visual inspection.
And in the absence of any legal action defending the title, there would have been no pressing reason to especially review the offending part of the building.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
ClubMan said:
How precise are plot maps such as those lodged with Land Registry/Registry of Deeds or (if different) exchanged during a property transaction? I know that when I was buying my house in the mid 90s the only map I saw had the site outlined by a line so thick that if scaled up to full scale would have been several meters thick thus making the precise boundary of the site difficult to ascertain. To this day I'm still not sure what the boundary is even if it's of only academic interest at the moment.
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A Clubman - Re accuracy of maps.

The old rule of thumb was that if its a 1:2500 map it can be up to + or - 2M at the corners
An urban place map is 1:1000 scale and so the margin for error is less, but it could still be in the 250-500mm range.
Put it like this - a 1:100 mm drawing can be taken to be a pencils width out quite easily, which is 50-100mm or 2" - 4".
That's why drawings say dimensions are not to be taken from the drawing and any discrepancies between the drawings and the site or building should be brought to the attention of the architect/engineer

In a practical sense, there is also error that can creep in to building word due to the placement and size of elements.
We once carried out a job where we had to place a very large building very accurately in a site relative to another building.
The site had an indeterminate and overgrown boundary condition along most of its length so on site triangulation was difficult.

We used a digital survey for the site and the other house, and got the surveyor to set out the wall centre lines and then to check the position of the built work.
Using a competent contractor and me attending most days, it was 100mm out of position, but that is an extreme position where there were a lot few factors working against us.

We had allowed for the error and were further away than we needed to be even with the discrepancy and this is the nub of the matter.
Tolerances and surveys and ordnance survey and title maps notwithstanding - all these things can be allowed for in building work.
You can act to ensure a trespass does not occur in most cases where the title boundary is known.

In my opinion, the surveyor could have noticed the extension first of all and commented on whether it was exempted development.
If it was demonstrably over the building line of the adjoining property, it was both a trespass and not exempted.
Of course there may be extenuating circumstance.
Its a lot easier to see a trespass like this from the adjoining property.
Where the boundary is obscured or uneven the trespass may not be apparent to visual insepction.

This is where the action/inaction of the adjoining owner raises questions - they failed to act to mitigate their loss.
In the case of the site we dealt with, we had a neighbour who was intent on preserving his privacy.
I fail to see how the adjoining owner didn't bring this to the attention of the previous owner.

Defense of title is what normally kicks off the action to be taken in boundary disputes.
And that stems from local knowledge of athe developing (sic) or completed situation.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
WGT said:
Going forward, I'm just going to give our neighbour our solicitor's number and let them sort it. Either way, I don't think it's our issue to resolve.
Click to expand...

WGT, one way or another its your issue to resolve - caveat emptor applies.
What are you going to do when you eventually come to sell your house?

Also acquired rights are currently scheduled to expire next year with the Land Conveyancing and Law Reform Act 2009.
If that time limit isn't extended, a pillar of any case you might put forward in support of your position may disappear.

I would respectfully advise you to seek a second opinion from an independent solicitor to through the legal fog.
I think eventually this will go back to the apparent total inaction by the neighbour at the time.

A deed of rectification may be required as the simplest way to regularize the title.
Who should pay for this will be the subject of said independent advice.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Hi just wondering if WGT needs to sell this house in the future what problems he might encounter if it is confirmed that the property is about 18 inch's over the boundary and how might he solve this problem?
 
@ Clubman - Re the thickened lines on title maps.

The thick line is usually an "outline" in red on the original, copied many times - the title is what lies within these continual red outlines.

This convention works fine for sequential sales as long as the convention is understood and followed.

But you have to check the originals going back to make sure some fool didn't "inline" the red line at any time.

Difficulties arise on second transfer where an agreed map is used for a transfer of land with "inline" colours meeting at a joint boundary.

Thankfully cheap colour copying and digital reproduction is available for checking purposes.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
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