There is a lot of recirculation in the market. ... But the home doesn't generally become unoccupied; it simply becomes occupied by someone else.
+1One tenant's "eviction" (a pedantic point perhaps, but eviction is a loaded term - almost nobody is "evicted" - most leave when served with a valid notice of termination)
I agree that was never anything but sensationalism.There's a Tsunami of evictions coming. (Still waiting for that.)
Many people have more money than they can reasonably spend. Young people with no kids and good jobs. Old people with good pensions, people in mid life with high earnings.We have a cost of living crisis. (Dublin Airport's never been busier)
We really do have a housing crisis. People cannot find a place to live. When people cannot provide stable housing for their kids, that is a crisis for us all.We have a homelessness crisis. (13,000 people or one in every 385 people in the country)
The problem is the word "crisis" has been totally devalued by (mostly left wing and Shinner) populist politicians. Everything is a crisis according to that lot. Boyd Barrett, Paul Murphy, Mary Lou and her comrades in arms find a different crisis every day. You'd never think that we live in a pretty decent democracy, where standards of living have never been higher, disposable incomes have never been higher, the public health service has never been better and numbers going to third level have never been higher.....
We really do have a housing crisis. People cannot find a place to live. When people cannot provide stable housing for their kids, that is a crisis for us all.
The problem is the word "crisis" has been totally devalued by (mostly left wing and Shinner) populist politicians. Everything is a crisis according to that lot. Boyd Barrett, Paul Murphy, Mary Lou and her comrades in arms find a different crisis every day. You'd never think that we live in a pretty decent democracy, where standards of living have never been higher, disposable incomes have never been higher, the public health service has never been better and numbers going to third level have never been higher.
As for housing, a generation or so ago, the standard issue social housing was a poorly finished house in a public housing ghetto. No central heating, no built in wardrobes, one bathroom, small cheap formica topped kitchen units. And you lived in a decrepit bedsit while you waited for one. Nowadays it's an A rated house with solar PV, 2/3 bathrooms, fitted furniture and nice kitchen with top quality appliances. And a HAP subsidized private rental while you wait.
Some crisis!
I hope not.I hope there is some element of satire intended here. It's hard to tell.
Once someone catastrophises something it's hard to call it out without having the Twittering masses become outraged. We live in a post-fact society where problems are crisis and truth is relative,Politicians or every hue refer to things as crises, be they left, right, or undecided.
It's a pressing matter but nearly every country in the developed world is facing the same problem. It's a symptom of nearly two decades of money printing and the imbalance between labour and capital that has caused. As a country, and considering how bad our crash was, how much our population is increasing and how labour flows are restricted because we are an island we are actually doing really well on this issue. In comparison to our peers our government is doing a good job.Whether or not this is a crisis by the dictionary definition, we have a pressing problem with housing that affects all of us in some manner.
Previously we exported around 40,000 people a year. That means that we had no housing shortages.I agree that Ireland is a fantastic place in many ways and has come along in leaps and bounds, but that just makes it all the more galling that thousands of people remain unable to find or afford homes, including thousands of children.
So what's the solution? I see a very strong economic and social case for a significant increase in residential property tax but that won't wash. We like whinging about problems but we don't like accepting our individual culpability and shouldering our proportion of the burden of the solution.It is a poor reflection of our social priorities, our economic maturity, our government (and opposition), and ultimately ourselves as citizens.
Agreed.I agree that was never anything but sensationalism.
Many people have more money than they can reasonably spend. Young people with no kids and good jobs. Old people with good pensions, people in mid life with high earnings.
The meaningless whining in the press shouldn't disguise the important issue
No, we have a housing shortage and very high rents. That's caused by all the QE related things like an economy at 98.5% capacity and labour shortages. Then tere's net immigration, inefficient planning structures, an under resourced Civil Service and all that stuff.We really do have a housing crisis. People cannot find a place to live. When people cannot provide stable housing for their kids, that is a crisis for us all.
I'm failing to make myself clear then! For.the record, it's reality. Admittedly, reality now seems like satire, but that's the times we live in, and the unrealistic expectations we have inculcated in sections of society.I hope there is some element of satire intended here. It's hard to tell.
To a point, but it's a real speciality of the left, the pseudo-left, the extreme left, the eco-left and the left behind.Politicians or every hue refer to things as crises, be they left, right, or undecided.
Yes, and a problem is not a crisis. Labelling it as such does not aid in finding the best solution.Whether or not this is a crisis by the dictionary definition, we have a pressing problem with housing that affects all of us in some manner.
The vast vast majority of those thousands have homes, just not exactly the ones they want. And as @Purple points out (and no politician ever will) many are gaming the system.I agree that Ireland is a fantastic place in many ways and has come along in leaps and bounds, but that just makes it all the more galling that thousands of people remain unable to find or afford homes, including thousands of children.
Only in the sense that we have allowed unrealistic expectations to take hold. Expectations that can only be fulfilled by unreasonable burdens placed on the hardworking, taxpaying citizenry.It is a poor reflection of our social priorities, our economic maturity, our government (and opposition), and ultimately ourselves as citizens.
+1 to all of that.I'm failing to make myself clear then! For.the record, it's reality. Admittedly, reality now seems like satire, but that's the times we live in, and the unrealistic expectations we have inculcated in sections of society.
To a point, but it's a real speciality of the left, the pseudo-left, the extreme left, the eco-left and the left behind.
Yes, and a problem is not a crisis. Labelling it as such does not aid in finding the best solution.
The vast vast majority of those thousands have homes, just not exactly the ones they want. And as @Purple points out (and no politician ever will) many are gaming the system.
Here's when I think the problem is broader. Most people are net recipients from the State. It costs about €8000 a year to educate a child. Then there's free GP care and subsidised childcare and when you're old there's State Pensions that most people never come close to paying for, free healthcare, reduced taxes and all sorts of other handouts. Most people get far more back than they put in and that's okay, the State takes taxes from businesses and other sources and spends the money on the people but the notion of a Middle that pays for everything and gets nothing back i couldn't be further from the truth... and don't get me started on how selfish and entitled old people are. The unreasonable burden their expectations, born of groundless entitlement, place the biggest burden of any cohort.Only in the sense that we have allowed unrealistic expectations to take hold. Expectations that can only be fulfilled by unreasonable burdens placed on the hardworking, taxpaying citizenry.
Most? Children, granted, perhaps, but even then their parents may well be net contributors.+1 to all of that.
Here's when I think the problem is broader. Most people are net recipients from the State.
Not for most working adults.It costs about €8000 a year to educate a child. Then there's free GP care...
Again, for children, obviously!and subsidised childcare
I doubt that. A lifetime of PRSI plus employer's PRSI alone (total 14.75%) should handsomely pay for the OAP. That's without considering other direct taxes.and when you're old there's State Pensions that most people never come close to paying for...
After a lifetime of working and contributing, fair enough.free healthcare, reduced taxes and all sorts of other handouts.
There is a middle and upper income that pays for most stuff and gets little back.Most people get far more back than they put in and that's okay, the State takes taxes from businesses and other sources and spends the money on the people but the notion of a Middle that pays for everything and gets nothing back i couldn't be further from the truth...
Again, a lifetime of work, plus many are contributing one way or.another to their children and grandchildren.and don't get me started on how selfish and entitled old people are.
If it's groundless entitlement, I wouldn't be looking at people with 45 years work behind them.The unreasonable burden their expectations, born of groundless entitlement, place the biggest burden of any cohort.
Some of us pay VAT and duties in addition to the direct income taxes, PRSI, USC etc etc.And we all pay taxes, some of us don't pay income tax but we all pay VAT and duties etc.
"Everyone else is handling this poorly" is not an excuse. That sort of thinking lets governments off the hook, discourages innovation, and delays progress. If everyone else in class was getting a D, would you not still aim for an A?It's a pressing matter but nearly every country in the developed world is facing the same problem. It's a symptom of nearly two decades of money printing and the imbalance between labour and capital that has caused. As a country, and considering how bad our crash was, how much our population is increasing and how labour flows are restricted because we are an island we are actually doing really well on this issue. In comparison to our peers our government is doing a good job.
It might directly affect 13,000 people but the indirect effects are very significant. Lack of housing, lack of mobility/choice in the market, increase in rents, increase in house prices - all of these are connected and cause ripples across the economy.Oh, and it's not a problem that affects most of us. In fact it only affects a small proportion of us.
Agree - property tax should have been introduced a long time ago and it should be much higher than it is now.So what's the solution? I see a very strong economic and social case for a significant increase in residential property tax but that won't wash. We like whinging about problems but we don't like accepting our individual culpability and shouldering our proportion of the burden of the solution.
Housing is considered a universal human right by many of us, is included in some national constitutions, and part of international treaties which Ireland has signed/ratified.Oh, and I don't think it's a poor reflection of any of that. I don't think housing is a right.
... but 13,000 people out of a population of over 5 million is not a crisis and a fair proportion of that 13'000 are just gaming the system to get social housing.
@Purple and @Right Winger what do you both mean by gaming the system? And what are the actual figures? I hear people say this but have never seen any data produced.The vast vast majority of those thousands have homes, just not exactly the ones they want. And as @Purple points out (and no politician ever will) many are gaming the system.
I don't see how an expectation that all children should be housed safely and securely is unreasonable. As a "hardworking, taxpaying citizen" (you forgot "who gets up early in the morning"), I would be happy to pay more tax for that purpose.Only in the sense that we have allowed unrealistic expectations to take hold. Expectations that can only be fulfilled by unreasonable burdens placed on the hardworking, taxpaying citizenry.
The basic way is to make yourself appear homeless so you get up the priority list for social housing. Local authorities generally won't accept you as homeless if you voluntarily leave your current accommodation, so a certain level of deception must be employed. Among the ways people do this are:@Purple and @Right Winger what do you both mean by gaming the system?
Ah, come on now! Live in the real world for a minute. What local authority is going to produce figures for how its generosity gets abused?And what are the actual figures?
This is a classic argument trotted out by people who (probably for ideological reasons) are determined not to see abuses in areas such as social welfare, public housing and so on. (In fairness, a similar argument is often made on the other end of the ideological spectrum for tax evasion and suchlike.)I hear people say this but have never seen any data produced.
Why does it have to be from the local authority? How about The Indo, Business Post, Irish Times, Limerick Leader, Prime Time, Gript, The Ditch, etc. etc.? Whistleblowers, FOIs, leaked documents, etc.?Ah, come on now! Live in the real world for a minute. What local authority is going to produce figures for how its generosity gets abused?
If you're making claims then the onus is on you to offer some sources. You can't expect people to just accept something because it's your opinion.This is a classic argument trotted out by people who (probably for ideological reasons) are determined not to see abuses in areas such as social welfare, public housing and so on. (In fairness, a similar argument is often made on the other end of the ideological spectrum for tax evasion and suchlike.)
But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Where are you getting this from? I know several people who have been on housing lists in Dublin and elsewhere, none of them ended up in "A-rated houses with all mod cons". They were very basic properties where I would not have been comfortable living myself and I'm not exactly fussy. One of them had her door kicked in in the middle of the night. Another the landlord controlled the heating remotely and wouldn't let her turn it on when her baby was cold but she was afraid she would be evicted if she complained. I just have never seen or heard of anyone living the high life described above - surely if it's so common there should be plenty of data on it and examples in the public domain...?The basic way is to make yourself appear homeless so you get up the priority list for social housing. Local authorities generally won't accept you as homeless if you voluntarily leave your current accommodation, so a certain level of deception must be employed. Among the ways people do this are:
1. Persuade their landlord to issue a notice of termination. They then go to Threshold to "validate" it. (Yes, this is a service Threshold offer!) Then the local authority bumps them up the emergency housing list for the nice A rated house with all mod cons that the taxpayers who paid for it couldn't afford themselves.
You are telling us that there are significant numbers of couples making false claims of domestic violence in order to manipulate a housing list? And it must be hundreds of cases if you are including it as one of your 3 highlighted schemes? This is one of the most bizarre things I have read on AAM in a long time.3. Feign a domestic violence driven separation. The family now need two homes. When they get the nice one they want, they happily reconcile and have comfortable housing for a pittance.
Parents pay for their children. It's a transfer to the family.Most? Children, granted, perhaps, but even then their parents may well be net contributors.
If the adult has children then yes, it is.Not for most working adults.
It's a cost that would have otherwise be born by the parents so it's something they get for their taxes.Again, for children, obviously!
Most of that is paid by the employer and PRSI covers way more than pensions.I doubt that. A lifetime of PRSI plus employer's PRSI alone (total 14.75%) should handsomely pay for the OAP.
That's not for pensions.That's without considering other direct taxes.
Or after a lifetime of scrounging and under performing. Lazy people retire too, as do tax dodgers and welfare cheats.After a lifetime of working and contributing, fair enough.
As a cohort only the top 20% of earners are net contributors. The vast majority of that is contributed by the top 10%. By international standards the rich in tis country are overtaxed and middle income earners are undertaxed.There is a middle and upper income that pays for most stuff and gets little back.
How do you know that? The high watermark of doing bugger all in the Public Sector was in the 70's and 80's. Those people are all pensioners now.Again, a lifetime of work,
Sure, with unearned windfall wealth as a result of a property boom caused by the same money that bailed them out after the crash.plus many are contributing one way or.another to their children and grandchildren.
I would. I'd look at everyone.If it's groundless entitlement, I wouldn't be looking at people with 45 years work behind them.
Yep, I pay lots of tax, am definitely a net contributor, have worked for over 30 years etc etc but I'm no more a tax payer than anyone else.Some of us pay VAT and duties in addition to the direct income taxes, PRSI, USC etc etc.
Yes, but middle income families are still big net recipients.Others pay VAT and duties out of the money handed over to them by the State in the first place. Plus they are the ones that get just about everything free. These are net recipients, and then some.
I agree, but families on middle incomes aren't paying for them as they are already getting back more than they put in.That's one hell of a difference!