Fuel Poverty

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Purple

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There are headlines all over the place about how nearly a third of households are now living in energy poverty.
According to page 5 of this the definition of Fuel/Energy Poverty is when households spend 10 % or more of their income to achieve WHO standards (21 C in living rooms and 18 C in all other rooms). There doesn't seem to be a definition for it here, just questionnaires and opinions.
The average household income in Ireland is around €44k. The average household income for the bottom third of the country is around €14'500. That means for them to be in fuel poverty they need to be spending around €120 a month on energy. That is an average of families, retirees and single people. The average income per family with 2-3 children within that group is considerably larger. The average combined electricity and gas costs using the best deal on the market is €2,133. Source.
Obviously households with low incomes aren't going to be using Tumble Dryers or other high energy devices that would increase their bills so it's reasonable to think that their bills will be lower than the average but this does seem to be a real problem, though the emotive language used to describe it is silly.
We should not be doing things like increasing fuel allowances for all pensioners since as a cohort they are at a low risk of poverty.
What is clear is that many people are doing just fine so any measures to help people should be targeted and temporary.
 
TRS30 said:
A new buzz word/media sound bite, whatever term you want to use. Much like one of my personal pet hates- 'most vulnerable in society', which seems to be a catch all for anyone on less then €50K+.
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Yes, the conflation of income and wealth again. If you are a homeowner and have no mortgage then spending 10% of your income on fuel it's no big deal. If you earn €80k a year but have a big mortgage or are paying a high rent then spending 5% of your income on fuel could be a huge deal.
We should be using after tax income less the net cost of housing, divided by the number of people in each household as a benchmark figure for all these types of calculations.
 
Purple said:
Yes, the conflation of income and wealth again. If you are a homeowner and have no mortgage then spending 10% of your income on fuel it's no big deal. If you earn €80k a year but have a big mortgage or are paying a high rent then spending 5% of your income on fuel could be a huge deal.
We should be using after tax income less the net cost of housing, divided by the number of people in each household as a benchmark figure for all these types of calculations.
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Very true. We have a decent income (circa €130K) however don't feel wealthy. Increases in fuel cost alone would be manageable however when you factor in pretty much everything else we have to pay for is also increasing, the overall impact is much greater.
 
TRS30 said:
Very true. We have a decent income (circa €130K) however don't feel wealthy. Increases in fuel cost alone would be manageable however when you factor in pretty much everything else we have to pay for is also increasing, the overall impact is much greater.
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So what's your after tax income less your mortgage repayments/rent?
Gross income really tells us very little.
I like this example;
Married couple with 2 small children on a €130,000 income.
Income after tax €89,895
Mortgage of €450k over 25 years.
Repayments including insurance €2100 per month, €25,200 per year.

Net income after cost of housing €64,695
The cost of childcare for two children (net of children's allowance) is €37,440

Net income after cost of tax, childcare and housing €27,255
Weekly disposable income per household member around €130.



Retired couple on income of €40k a year.
Income after tax €38,100
No mortgage.
No childcare costs. Medical card, free travel etc.

Net income after cost of housing €38,100.
Weekly disposable income per household member around €350.


The couple on €130k are rich.
The retired couple are part of the "Most Vulnerable in Society".

Which household will feel the most impact from higher energy costs?
 
Purple said:
Obviously households with low incomes aren't going to be using Tumble Dryers or other high energy devices that would increase their bills
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Why wouldn't a low income family be using tumble dryers? (It's not as if it's an option to turn up at work or send a child to school in damp or dirty clothes.)
 
T McGibney said:
Why wouldn't a low income family be using tumble dryers? (It's not as if it's an option to turn up at work or send a child to school in damp or dirty clothes.)
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Clothes lines or clothes horses are perfectly fine for drying clothes. I never use the tumble dryer as it's expensive and bad for the environment.
 
Purple said:
Clothes lines or clothes horses are perfectly fine for drying clothes. I never use the tumble dryer as it's expensive and bad for the environment.
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Many apartment dwellers are reliant on tumble dryers. Probably duplex town houses also.
 
T McGibney said:
Not if a child has a dirty uniform jumper and it has to be washed and dried and ready for school in the morning.
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Make sure they have two jumpers. It's much cheaper than a tumble dryer.
I had 3 children in school at one stage and never needed a tumble dryer.
 
I heard the esri on this morning about not reducing fuel taxes but actually about giving a social welfare bonus instead. Then last week another body was on about giving a grant to people that work from home.

What about the people on between 30 and 40k that drive to work every day that keep all the services ,factories, hospitals and supermarkets running that worked all through the pandemic??
So give people on social welfare that don't drive to work a bonus ,give people that work from home on high salaries mostly a grant but give nothing to the people that drive to work every day on modest incomes !!
The esri have completely lost any credibility as an economic advisory years ago
 
odyssey06 said:
That can be risky re: mould, depending on the property and how well heated \ ventilated it is.
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Maybe, but that's a different issue. The point is that you can get by without one. It's not an essential so if you've a low income you shouldn't have an expectation that you should have one. The same goes for foreign holidays, smoking, takeaways, alcohol etc. If you can afford any of those you can afford to heat your home.
 
joe sod said:
I heard the esri on this morning about not reducing fuel taxes but actually about giving a social welfare bonus instead. Then last week another body was on about giving a grant to people that work from home.

What about the people on between 30 and 40k that drive to work every day that keep all the services ,factories, hospitals and supermarkets running that worked all through the pandemic??
So give people on social welfare that don't drive to work a bonus ,give people that work from home on high salaries mostly a grant but give nothing to the people that drive to work every day on modest incomes !!
The esri have completely lost any credibility as an economic advisory years ago
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Most recipients of social welfare work.
A working family with 2 children qualifies for the Working Family Payment (formerly know as Family Income Supplement).
All families on 30-40k would qualify for Rent supports if they are renting.

People on high incomes tax high taxes and, as I pointed out above, have high costs.
 
Purple said:
Make sure they have two jumpers. It's much cheaper than a tumble dryer.
I had 3 children in school at one stage and never needed a tumble dryer.
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If you're running a low income household, two of everything in a school uniform might be seen as quite a luxury, especially with children growing out of clothes all the time.
 
In 2008 the oil price was $140 a barrel yet the price of a litre of diesel or petrol was nowhere near now , it was around 130cent a litre then.
Now the price of a barrel of oil is $120 yet the price of a litre of petrol is 220c almost a euro extra even though oil is lower now than 2008.
I know there are now higher refining costs but the vast bulk of that differential is large taxation increases.
To say that fuel taxes cannot be reduced is rubbish, the esri are talking nonsense
If anyone needs a break it's the people that drive to work every day and keep this country running
 
Re the tumble dryer thing - I bought a tumble dryer last year after 30 yrs in this house! Never had one before and managed with radiators mainly and line in summer, not a fan of the clothes horse as unless I popped it up in the kitchen there was no real space or home for it, might be fine with a decent size utility room. I did have one but usually put it outside on a fine day, it's slow enough to dry on it indoors unless you have a very warm house.

Anyways my main reason for buying at this late stage (ironically now that energy costs are rising!) was visiting grandchildren who apparently need to change their clothes every day and wash the previous days. Now there is no denying of course they must change them if dirty but a lot of the time they are not actually dirty and as small kids don't sweat they aren't sweaty either. We definitely didn't wash clothes as often back years ago and I don't recall my school jumper being washed daily between wears, in fact it just couldn't have been as there was no means to dry it that fast. Laundry seems to be a practically full time occupation in most houses with children these days, couple of loads a day most days and if it's raining well what do you do!
 
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